The Campaign Builder's Guild

Because everything is a "war" nowadays. ;)

This is a continuation of a tangent that sprung up on Xeviat's race thread. The conflict is best described as this:
[blockquote Grr]I prefer to have fewer race options available to players per campaign. While the setting itself might have a thousand options for the players, it's much better to have two or three, four at the most, for the players to choose from. Having six different races in the same party makes it harder for the DM to craft a believable world, unless the entire setting is a mish-mash of races in every town, city, and village. Otherise, only one member of the party would be of any use in most places at any time.[/blockquote][blockquote Raelifin]"Of any use?" What prevents a party of humans from adventuring in a dwarven city? Why does having a selection for your players make the world any less believable?[/blockquote][blockquote Grr]It's not the selection available, it's the makeup of the party. A diverse number of races within the party makes it harder on the DM. Especially if their campaign setting has racial tension between various races.

I have no problem with there being a wide variety of possible races for the players to choose from, but they should choose from within a smaller subset based upon the type of campaign the dm wants to run. It'd be pretty silly to play a bunch of elves, pixies, and half-dragons if the dm planned on an underground campaign centered around troubles, plaguing the dwarves in the mountains.[/blockquote][blockquote Phoenix Knight]I kind of agree with Grr. Having every member of the party be a radically different race is good for comic games, but can strain serious ones.[/blockquote]


Now, I'm not saying that having racially diverse parties are easier to GM, as I often have trouble with making sure the players match the adventure. However, I will certainly say that the racial tensions that may be present in a party that is all different races is no reason to limit your setting to less than four easily playable options. LotR is a perfect example of a story that was defined by the diversity present. Granted, there were four "PC races" in middle earth, but wizards (who are more like angels if you read between the lines) are surely unique. Even Aragorn had elven blood. Racial diversity in that party provided unique opportunity that would be difficult to express clearly in a limited environment (say you take out elves and wizards).

I belive that the post above contain these proposed "cons" to having a racially diverse game (and possibly, world):
* It's hard to provide explanations for far-flung races (renegade drow syndrome).
* Only members of "compatible" races can successfully interact socially during a given scene.
* Racial tensions can be distracting and hard for DMs who don't like in-party conflicts.
* Races of the forest will be restricted in deserts, races of the sky won't like caves, etc.
* Racialy divers parties are comical, and thus are a detriment to serious games.

First of all, I will admit that having an all-human setting is way cool and is probably better for "serious" games. This is, however, due to the non-fantastic nature of humans. Having a party of all-dwarves, imho, isn't going to make the game any more "serious." Situations where racial tensions manifest in comical ways is due to the tone of the game, attitude of the players, etc.

Racial restrictions rarely bother me because I tend to build my adventures around the party. The biggest restriction is the aquatic/terrestrial split, which, I admit is a large detriment to having a cohesive party. In a situation where players are out of their element - that's fine! It simply provides a more tense scene. Remember that the DM should help guide the players with the game they want to play, not the other way around.

Racial tensions are always fun in my experience. Sure, some can be silly and some can be hazardous, but just like Romeo and Juliet, conflict means interesting situations (if done well).

As for the incompatibility of human interaction in a dwarven city (or any other form of "incompatibility"), that's just rubbish. If the players are dealing with a race that is too xenophobic to recognize half the party, what is the party doing there? Besides! More conflict!

The renegade drow syndrome is the hardest to deal with. If players want to play races from opposite ends of the earth, you have to pull something to make it work. However, the minor tweaking needed to fit players together can easily be part of the show (council of Elrond / babe in the woods) and it is hardly a reason to drop races from a world.
Yes, limiting player selection upon character creation is an easy way to solve this. I have done so on several occasions.

 :2cents:
 -Rael

Hhm.  All the text in my post seems to have vanished.

Ah, well.  In any case, I agree with Rael almost totally.

In some of my original versions of Kishar, I had a serious of races of created in a numerical order by the Star of Life.

Encarans are the first race
Fey are the second race
...
...
Humans are the eight race (I think)

and so forth for twenty or so races.

But I've drifted a bit away from the motif, and considering more and more whether I want all these other races.  Some are too central to the world to remove - encarans, the fey, and so forth.

But I feel like I may lose the dark, gritty ( :rambo: ), realistic mood if I include too many races.  I suppose Raelifin may be right that the tone is disrupted simply by the presence of non-existent races, even if they are similar to humans.

But I have considered increasingly I may need to make other races more distant, more out there if I want to maintain the feel that the supernatural is rare.  Like maybe they exist, but are out in the wilderness - wild and nearly unknown to normal characters.  Certainly, my world is focused on human society.

Maybe some other creators have struggled with similar tensions?  Wanting to incorporate varying ideas, but fearing that with each new race include, you dilute the tone?

Anyway, that's really just rambling at this point, since I haven't totally collected my thoughts on the matter. :2cents:

Yeah, I felt the exact same way as you, Phoenix. Lately though, I feel that all those races just give a great diversity to a setting and leave a great open space for your creativity to flourish.

Recently, I watched the whole Star Wars saga and well, you have a lot of different species there and that never took away the mood of it all, did it?

Overall, I think it's a matter of taste. Eventually, you could have tons of races that don't resemble humans at all, that when done right can provide the exact same dark, gritty mood (if not a deeper one; think Mind Flayers). You just have to add things that make them seem as real as a human... Of course, there's more work involved... but that's part of the fun, no?

For my main setting, I chose to keep Humans apart (for a time) simply because I wanted that fantastic, non-gritty atmosphere. (Though that's not the only reason)

I think World of Darkness does a good job at keeping a decent level of seriousness/grit while having non-humans. Though, to be honest, their vampires and werewolves seem more human than most "human" d20 PCs. (What's that? You want to be a dragon disciple and get psionic tatoos? Okay!)

*nods*

Racial diversity, in my opinion, is a good thing. Kahtar only has, what, 4 or 5 races - humans, dwarves, elves, changelings - plus a couple of other special ones - but it's diverse to the extreme, with at least three different cultures for each race.

Quote from: RaelifinI think World of Darkness does a good job at keeping a decent level of seriousness/grit while having non-humans. Though, to be honest, their vampires and werewolves seem more human than most "human" d20 PCs. (What's that? You want to be a dragon disciple and get psionic tatoos? Okay!)

I suspect that has to do with the nature of players for those games.  But you're right.

On the other hand, when you hear that a party of a human, a dwarf, a lizardman, and a minotaur just walked into bar, well it sounds more like a joke than a real situation.  Someone mentioned mind flayers.  I think those can work preciously because they are not intended to be the central characters - their antagonists.  If we have a setting where they are not only useful members of society, but playable (in gaming), then I think they lose some of their edge.

The above situation is ridiculous only because the lizardman and the minotaur are "freaky." Suppose the following situation.

[ic]Rain was coming down in sheets and Gorn's hooves sank into the soft earth as he walked. All around him were the structures of men, wooden and frail. His two compainons, the dwarf Elsrik and the human Tiana were overjoyed when they had reached this hamlet, but Gorn was not pleased; it was no place for a minotaur.

Kelthisi, the lizardfolk from Jeh'vod scurried over the mud toward the three companions, her cloak soaked, black and heavy. Though he never fully trusted the reptile, he felt comfort in her presence, she hated this place more than he.

â,¬Å"I found a satisfactory place of rest, redbloods. There is a loud house down that street where the humankind drink and dull their senses. In the loft, there are beds for resting and foods for eating.â,¬Â Kelthisi's manner of speech was hard to follow, but Gorn was pleased by the news of a tavern.

Tiana smiled warmly at the news, her magician's staff glowing unnaturally in the gloom. â,¬Å"Perhaps the tavern owner would let us rest the night there. I would hope that we would not have to intrude on a farmhouse.â,¬Â

The party traveled wearily along the street. A horse, tied to a building, watched the demi-humans pass with wide eyes. As the bar approached, Gorn noticed Kelthisi pull her hood up, though the emperor's truce was still in effect, little was certain in these lands. Lightning flashed overhead and as the tunder boomed, noble Tiana opened the door. Inside was a ruckus of activity as weary farmers chose to drink away the thoughts of flooding rather than return to their cottages alone. As the men noticed the newcomers, the room hushed. Gorn stepped over the threshold, twisting to make room for his horns, and as he stood to his full height, more than one man gazed in fear. He would have to be careful this night, for frightened animals often attacked, even small ones.[/ic]

I personally think there is no wrong or right answer to this "question" we have on our hands.  Just to be clear, I'm interpreting the debate as an argument between whether it might be proper or not to restrict player options even moreso than a particular setting might already.

I am of the opinion, as usual, that it is the DM's choice, and thus any argument is not much of an argument after all.  If the DM wants verisimilitude in his world, he might restrict the diversity of races or places of origin in a party to fit within a certain probability, and to make it easier for him to plan his game.

However, I think it is important to remember that (most of us) are playing fantasy, and in fantasy, the PC's are the Heroes.  It's alright for them to hail from all corners of the earth, so long as it isn't inconvenient for the plot.  The PC's are exceptions, and I think this is a fact often overlooked in these discussions.

To use an earlier example of a party of humans in a dwarven settlement, the heroes would be allowed entrance and the opportunity to aid due to the nature of their reputations, and nigh-unique skills.

Anyway, that's my take here, read it as you will.

I would say part of the debate is not just whether to restrict races as PCs (or major characters in the case of novels), but whether they should be present at all.

While I admit Raelifin's story is less comic than the typical portrayal of that party, I wonder if I can include, say lizardfolk, in my setting, and still have it feel dark, realistic, and edgy.  While the debate rages on about the nature of low fantasy, I'll continue to call Kishar low fantasy - in reference to the kind of mood I want to evoke.

But I wonder if the presence of non-human races almost automatically starts to drift into the realm of high fantasy (which for the moment I contend cannot be quite as dark and serious in tone, though it can still be kind of dark and serious).

I have been stalling a revision of my history, partly because I'm still uncertain how many races to cut.  Oddly, I feel I can make some races animas (and therefore alien, unknown) and thus avoid distancing myself too much from the historical world.

Quote from: Critical ThreatTo use an earlier example of a party of humans in a dwarven settlement, the heroes would be allowed entrance and the opportunity to aid due to the nature of their reputations, and nigh-unique skills.

This is a good way to retcon in characters that don't naturally fit into the setting. But how well it works depends on what you want.

Suppose that the Redbeard clan has been leading the settlement for generations, but the Mattocks clan has lately been challenging them, claiming that they are sending too much gold to the Dwarven High King. Now they've awakened something in the deep mines, and need help. Meanwhile, the Mattocks clan believes that they are digging too deep, driven by the need to pay the High King's levy, and they want to just close down the deep mines. The Redbeards (distant relatives to the High King) want to clear out whatever is there, and keep the mines open.

Now your human party could easily be integrated here, to help deal with the threat. But, not being dwarves, they probably don't have a dog in the fight. The whole political angle is largely shut down. Which is okay if you wanted a one shot dungeon adventure - but if the DM wanted to run a whole series of dwarven adventures, wouldn't it make more sense to limit racial choices to ones that don't have to be so heavily retconned into the setting?

It largely depends on what kind of campaign you want to run, how cohesively you want the players to work together, how much the players are willing to go along with in order to get that kind of campaign, etc. In other words, largely a matter of style. What is most important is that everyone understands what the style is going to be and has bought into that, at least minimally.

Well, in my experience, PC's can also become involved in an alien culture if given a reason to - i.e. they make friends there.

Maybe one of the dwarves in the town becomes a best buddy to one or more PCs.

Not to say that I disagree, with snakefing, but that one can get PCs involved without forcing them to be from a culture.