Wheeled Warfare

Polycarp · February 01, 2007, 10:16:01 PM

Part 2: The Anatomy of a Chariot

We might still have discussion to do on skill and feats, but I feel like posting the next step here. That next step is to see how normal mounted combat rules change in a chariot situation. There are a few major differences:

Speed. Does the chariot slow the horses down? By how much? How much weight can the horses take, considering they are pulling it, not lifting it, and considering that there are two of them?

[spoiler=My take]
I don't think a chariot should automatically slow the animals; they can be quite fast. I don't recall one of the main disadvantages of chariots being that they were significantly slower. We do need to make sure, however, that some chariots are slower than others, if we hope to include Hittite and other "heavy" variants.

There is a problem with encumbrance (warning, math ahead!). Our two horses each have a strength of 16 (thatÃ¢,¬,,¢s average for a light warhorse). How much weight can they handle?

Quote from: SRDA character can generally push or drag along the ground as much as five times his or her maximum load. Favorable conditions can double these numbers, and bad circumstances can reduce them to one-half or less.

Damage. How is damage to the chariot itself handled? What is its hp and hardness? What happens if one is killed? Can you cut somebodyÃ¢,¬,,¢s reins, and if so, how much damage to they take?

[spoiler=My take]
Wood has a hardness of 5 and 10hp per inch. A "treasure chest" in the SRD has 15hp. I assume a chariot would be around that, maybe 20hp? Obviously heavier chariots are going to have more hp. Attacking an object that somebody is riding on seems similar to attacking an object someone is carrying.

Quote from: My takeWe could handle it in a similar way to the rules on flying; perhaps you can turn 90 degrees at most per turn of movement, or take a standard or full-round action to make a 180 degree flip. We need something that's not too restrictive, of course.[/spoiler]

Obstacles. If a chariot runs over a person or gets caught in rough terrain, should the driver have to make a check, or otherwise have some chance of overturning the chariot?

[spoiler=My take]
A Handle Animal check would probably be appropriate, though I'm not sure what would determine the DC. There would probably be limits at some point, too; it might simply be impossible to trample an ogre without flipping over. We'll need rules for what happens when you flip over, too, since it might hurt a lot more than the usual 1d6 of falling off a horse.[/spoiler]

Trampling. We still have questions left over from my first post: how much damage do the wheels do in a trample attack, and do they require attack rolls?

[spoiler=My take]
I don't know about damage. An animated object of small size (about the size of a wheel) does 1d4 damage, so maybe together they would deal 2d4. There is, however, a lot of weight on those wheels, so maybe 2d6 or 2d8 is appropriate. We have to be careful to make the damage significant, but not overpowering (a 1st level fighter on a chariot trampling people for 2d8 would be pretty fearsome). I don't think they should require attack rolls, because if you are successfully overrun I don't see many ways to avoid them.[/spoiler]

Scythes: Even if scythed chariots werenÃ¢,¬,,¢t the most practical devices ever, it would be a shame not to have them. How would wheel-mounted blades be reflected in the rules?

[spoiler=My take]
A regular scythe does 2d4 damage. The question is, would you make attacks with them, or would they "automatically" attack any creature on your sides? If they attack automatically, we have to figure out what their attack bonus would be.[/spoiler]

snakefing · February 01, 2007, 11:59:14 PM

Hmm, in my campaign world the Oupun have chariots, but no horses. Instead they have something like a war buffalo. Not suitable for mounts (hence the chariots) but really big and strong, and fast enough in a full charge to do some serious damage.

No scythes though.

So we need to have decent rules for non-standard chariot teams too.

Polycarp · February 02, 2007, 12:23:09 AM

Quote from: snakefingHmm, in my campaign world the Oupun have chariots, but no horses. Instead they have something like a war buffalo. Not suitable for mounts (hence the chariots) but really big and strong, and fast enough in a full charge to do some serious damage.

I don't think that would take too much alteration. Use the speed of the buffalo (40, I assume) for the base speed of the chariot; if using a heavy chariot, treat the team as if it had medium barding and give it a speed of 30. You might design a special chariot just for them that was stouter and heavier than normal to reflect their considerable strength. I don't think many of the rules would have to change to accomodate different creatures; barding costs more for "unusual" mounts, but a chariot only has to get its tongue and reins changed (the body of the chariot itself wouldn't have to be hugely altered), so I would think the chariot would be priced normally.

Epic Meepo · February 02, 2007, 01:22:01 AM

Quote from: MithridatesA "treasure chest" in the SRD has 15hp. I assume a chariot would be around that, maybe 20hp?

An animated object of small size (about the size of a wheel) does 1d4 damage, so maybe together they would deal 2d4. There is, however, a lot of weight on those wheels, so maybe 2d6 or 2d8 is appropriate.[/quote]Consider looking at how much trample damage an animated chariot would deal. A non-animated chariot would presumably deal the same amount.

Polycarp · February 02, 2007, 03:03:58 AM

Quote from: Epic MeepoNo, much more than that. A tower shield has 20 hp, and a chariot is at least four tower shields (one floor, one front, and two sides with an open back).

Hmm, 20 is probably too few, but 80 seems too much. You don't actually have to break every single panel on a chariot to render it totally inoperable. Additionally, tower shields are thick and heavy, meant to withstand tremendous blows; chariots are generally made to be as light as possible while still being functional. 80 is probably around the right amount for a heavy chariot, but for the light warchariot we're considering here, 40 seems like a good compromise. A Roman-style one-man racing chariot with no sides would probably be closer to 20.

[quote1170402818]Consider looking at how much trample damage an animated chariot would deal. A non-animated chariot would presumably deal the same amount.
[/quote]

A war chariot for two people would probably be a large object, which does 1d8 damage. I suppose that's a fair number, and easy to remember.

Polycarp · February 02, 2007, 03:56:15 AM

Bonus consideration I just thought of: What check would passengers use to stay in the chariot? Probably not Handle Animal, as they aren't handling any animals. Maybe that is a valid place for a Balance check?

Polycarp · February 03, 2007, 02:58:12 AM

Another question: The SRD states that creatures with "higher ground" gain a +1 bonus to their melee attacks. Does this apply to mounted combat? I haven't taken much note of that bonus before.

Epic Meepo · February 05, 2007, 03:17:54 PM

Quote from: MithridatesThe SRD states that creatures with "higher ground" gain a +1 bonus to their melee attacks. Does this apply to mounted combat?

Not unless the mount is in the air. A rider is considered to share the same space as his mount, and you only have higher ground if the bottom edge of your space is higher than the bottom edge of your opponent's space. Of course, there's no telling how any of that applies to chariots, at least not based on the SRD, alone.

Stargate525 · February 05, 2007, 03:27:52 PM

Quote from: MithridatesA regular scythe does 2d4 damage. The question is, would you make attacks with them, or would they "automatically" attack any creature on your sides? If they attack automatically, we have to figure out what their attack bonus would be.[/spoiler]

I'd say 2d4 damage in every square of movement with a reflex save to negate, based on... I dunno yet...

Polycarp · February 06, 2007, 05:01:07 AM

Quote from: Epic MeepoNot unless the mount is in the air. A rider is considered to share the same space as his mount, and you only have higher ground if the bottom edge of your space is higher than the bottom edge of your opponent's space. Of course, there's no telling how any of that applies to chariots, at least not based on the SRD, alone.

Thanks for the clarification. I think it would be best to keep the "same space" rules that apply to horseback riding to chariot driving as well.

Quote from: Stawgate525I'd say 2d4 damage in every square of movement with a reflex save to negate, based on... I dunno yet...

Maybe the DC could be the driver's Handle Animal check? If it's just a set number, like a trap's attack bonus, they would quickly become irrelevant after a few levels. A skill check might be vaguely compatible with a reflex save, and it does seem like you'd need at least a little skill to maneuver the chariot so that its blades would be most effective. The blades of a chariot going straight ahead would presumably be easier to dodge than those of a chariot that's weaving back and forth trying to catch you off guard.

I'm thinking it could be similar to a gelatinous cube's charge: You can make an attack of opportunity, but if you do, you forgo your save. Thus, a chariot could roll through a pack of orcs and expose itself to a ton of attacks of opportunity, but with scythes they might shy away from that and try to avoid the scythes instead. If they all used their AoOs, they might bring it down, but they would get sliced up in the process. It would certainly approximate the purpose of scythes historically (to scatter the enemy and cause them to break ranks).

I would like it to remain a valid weapon at higher levels - even if the real ones weren't that great - simply because it would encourage people to enchant them, which could be quite interesting. Brilliant energy wheel scythes, for instance, could use used on chariots without damaging other nearby chariots and would ignore armor, but cut right through the massed enemy.

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