The Campaign Builder's Guild

a better means would be consistant, straightforward honesty.

believe it or not, society oftentimes is a near-direct reflection of yourself. in the case of emo's, they allow themselves to "disillusioned" (a term i don't particularly care for, as it implies that the happiness they lost wasn't real), which sinks them into a worldview that practically relies on oppression.

apathy is a more obvious example of this; people who succumb to this have the worldview of "the world doesn't care for me, why should i care for the world?" my response to that is, if you care for the world, the world will care back. the idea of society being a direct reflection of yourself gives reason to care.

pride, i think, is an interesting issue. i don't see anything wrong with pride, in and of itself. i think the problem is more with arrogance, when you see yourself as being above everybody else. once you apply the idea of society as a direct reflection to this worldview, interestingly enough, others are suddenly disgusted at your behavior; they start to see you as less then them.

the answer, it seems, is probably more then consistant, straightforward honesty. it's actively treating our worldviews the same way we wish the world to treat us.

I see a bit of bias surfacing on this thread.  Everybody is biased in some sense, I know I'm biased about things, and I think the best way to counter this is to take a step back and think about things.  Take a step back, and think about this:

Consider children playing a game.  As might be expected, they divide up into several groups; some to play, others to watch.  The children playing divide up into teams, with a few of the teams being much larger than the others.  These larger ones exert their influence over some of the smaller ones, and can generally dictate what should be done, to the exclusion of the other, smaller groups of children.

The children watching divide up themselves as well.  First, they divide up into the chatty, gossipy children and the ones who simply watch.  From there, they divide up further into those who are for a particular team.  As to be expected, most are for one of the larger teams, because they probably have a better chance of winning.  Some of the more popular children who are not playing use their influence to try and get some of the kids who are either for the smaller teams, because they have friends on them, or who are not for a team at all to go  along with them.  Some do, others don't.  A small majority of the children are interested and watch the game, but not all of those gathered.

Yet even having these teams does not ensure complete stability.  Some children from the smaller teams join the larger ones.  Some children from the larger teams switch to another team.  A few children on the larger teams join the smaller teams.  Even a few of the smaller teams make a deal with the a few of the larger teams for their mutual benefit.

Who runs the teams are usually interesting.  The leader of the team is usually the best athlete or the most charismatic person.  A few times, especially on the smaller teams, it is neither.  Even on the big teams, and uncharismatic, relatively nonathletic child is the leader simply because they are popular.  Mostly the game is going to be played by boys, but a few of the tomboyish girls, and even a few â,¬Å"girlyâ,¬Â girls, are playing as well.  Often, the girls used to complain that it was unfair that it was only boys playing, so they started playing as well.  A few of the girls try to take advantage of being girls, even the tomboyish girls, saying things like â,¬Å"Ladies first.â,¬Â

Some of the larger teams try to convince the children watching that they are the best, and that they are different than all the other teams.   Their gossipy friends try to help them out, sometimes because they are just being good friends, other times because they were asked.   Some of the other children watching listen to the gossipy children.  After all, they usually seem to know what they're talking about.

A few of the very small teams start to walk off.  When they are asked why, they give a few different answers.  Some say that the game is stupid, and that a different game needs to be played, one where everybody, even the people watching, can participate to have fun.  Others say that the bigger teams are going to make it unfair for the smaller teams, and that all the teams should be equal, otherwise it will never be fun.  Some of the gossipy children make fun of those who lef, saying that they are crazy for walking off for that kind of a reason, or that they are sore losers before they have even lost.

Some children, especially those on the bigger teams, begin to make fun of the other teams, taunting them.  They find that it is so fun, and that the children watching enjoy it so much, they keep intensifying it, to the point that it does not really make sense, and only serves its own end.  They especially direct it at the smaller teams, because they are bound to lose, so why should they be cheered for?

Just as the game is about to being, the teacher calls them in.  Maybe tomorrow.... Maybe.

Might you identify the nature of the bias?  If you note that we are all biased in some fashion (which we are), then you say nothing more than "on this thread we are being what we are".  What is the nature of this bias, and is it a bias that is detrimental to the discussion?

As to your allegory, is this to indicate the diversity of motivations brought to any engagement?  For all that it is a long(ish) piece, I suppose the point is rather simple and profound, but I do not believe I find anything in it that I would not have found by virtue of my bias (whatever that may be).  Or is it merely something to think about?

EDIT: and let me point out that the allegory emphasises the very reason why I will commit to the discussion but not the "cause".  By targeting the "Emo" culture, you seek to work against an entity of nebulous and multifarious nature.  Within its demographic we find a spectrum as varied as that of the children in the Allegory: their motivations could be any number of things, and in assuming one motivation (or faulty action) is espoused all, you oppose a thing which perhaps should not be opposed.

(which may not have been limetom's point, but it is mine)

As for my biases, I dislike the emo and to some extent the goth subculture, because  as a sufferer of depression, I see them as a bit "fake."  However, I personally try not to judge people as a group, but rather as individuals.  If anything, I end up defending them (as groups) quicker than decrying them.  (Aside: That was probably the most fake-sounding true thing I've ever said...)

As for other matters, I hold some sympathy for anarcho-primitivism, and I am a Democratic Socialist, meaning for political and some social issues, I'm out on the fringes.

I doubt that any of these would interfere with the discussion.

And as for interpreting my allegory, here is me on such matters from the other day:

In other words, it's whatever you make of it.

Good allegory.

There is a ton of bias here, at least on my part. My own bias involves a steep disgust and hatred towards the idea that seems to be planted in more and more people's heads that you can get something for nothing, no matter what level. Game cheats, pity in breakups, dramatization, etc., it can occur in a variety of ways and examples that might be all that similar. Pair that with WILLING (as in, lack of desire to be greater IF you CAN be) weakness, stupidity, cowardliness, sexism, racism, eating disorders, arrogance, and a thousand other things both common and uncommon, and there are going to be a lot of people that I would probably shoot without thinking twice. But let's not get into that.

The reason why I'm biased against emo people? In my personal experience, I have yet to meet a single emo person who didn't exhibit at least one of these traits, and they've usually featured several. These things certainly don't limit me to emo people, but I tend to pick on them (pardon me for using them so much like a stereotype) because they just push my buttons more frequently. Not to mention the music blows.

QuoteAs for my biases, I dislike the emo and to some extent the goth subculture, because as a sufferer of depression, I see them as a bit "fake." However, I personally try not to judge people as a group, but rather as individuals. If anything, I end up defending them (as groups) quicker than decrying them. (Aside: That was probably the most fake-sounding true thing I've ever said...)

Haha, well-put. Hmm... I wonder... is it possible to respect a movement or group, but hate all of the people who are in it and represent it? I'd say yes, but...

... but this would assume that an organization/movement is more than the people that constitute it. I'd rather describe your situation as follows: you subscribe to the ideas the organization/movement wants to further, but you also believe the people in the organization/movement (and hence the organization/movement as a whole) is going about this is in the wrong way.

Quote from: sdragon1984- the S is for penguina better means would be consistant, straightforward honesty.

believe it or not, society oftentimes is a near-direct reflection of yourself. in the case of emo's, they allow themselves to "disillusioned" (a term i don't particularly care for, as it implies that the happiness they lost wasn't real), which sinks them into a worldview that practically relies on oppression.

apathy is a more obvious example of this; people who succumb to this have the worldview of "the world doesn't care for me, why should i care for the world?" my response to that is, if you care for the world, the world will care back. the idea of society being a direct reflection of yourself gives reason to care.

pride, i think, is an interesting issue. i don't see anything wrong with pride, in and of itself. i think the problem is more with arrogance, when you see yourself as being above everybody else. once you apply the idea of society as a direct reflection to this worldview, interestingly enough, others are suddenly disgusted at your behavior; they start to see you as less then them.

the answer, it seems, is probably more then consistant, straightforward honesty. it's actively treating our worldviews the same way we wish the world to treat us.

A lot of truth in this post. I think there's two general rules that we can draw from this.

a) Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself (the old adage, mentioned in the Bible as well as by philosopher Immanuel Kant and others)

b) Extremes are always(?) wrong, the right attitude is always somewhere in the middle (pride as opposed to arrogance, the ability to reduce problems to the size they deserve as opposed to apathy)

Coupled with SA's excellent analysis and Raelifin's criticisms, I'd say those who want to do something (Seraphine and those that have said to support him in this thread) should, rather than proclaiming a Revolution against X or Y, try to emphasize good things in the world. I can see (at least in part) why newspapers and -shows focus on the bad things, but this doesn't mean the good things should stay out of the media altogether. Write stories, poems and other things that focus on the good things that happen in the world, and which promote the message that good reinforces itself and by doing good one will be done good. I think it's the best we can do.

Túrin

I have discussed with my friend these issues and the points brought up here, and we have come to an agreement that those such as Salacious Angel were correct in their analysis.  The "Revolution" is withdrawn.  Will there continue to be a Crusade for a better world, lifting up the good and hopeful messages rather than attacking what we see as wrong?  Perhaps.  We shall see.  Time will tell.

It's a short, but kind of long for message boards bit of autobiography.  It may have some overtones of self pity, but at the time and now, I still think of it as basically a humor piece.  If this is totally the wrong sort of thing for this thread, I will move it elsewhere:

[spoiler=story]JustiN's Night Out: A Story That Rambles Around for a While Without Really Getting Anywhere
by
JustiN Orion Neal Taylor
     I've noticed a pattern to my weird little life.  For a fellow who's never been on an airplane, is uncomfortable more than a mile away from a paved road and a fast food place (not, that I am overly fond of either; they're just the most visible symbols of civilization in the modern world), and is unsure in his opinions regarding travel, I sure do get stranded a lot.
     Take tonight (more accurately last night because I'm writing this down at 2:00 AM, which makes it the next day, and even more accurately a few weeks ago because I am typing this up much later).  I was invited to a Dungeons & Dragons game at Grand Valley State University (hereafter abbreviated GVSU) starting at around 6:00 that evening.  I caught the bus out from my Dad's apartment (the number 9 Alpine bus, for anyone hung up on little details like that) and transferred over to the Campus Connector (the bus running from GVSU's downtown campus to its Allendale campus), arriving at GVSU with no problem.
     I regarded time as a non-issue because I wasn't scheduled to work tomorrow.  I knew a D&D game can go on for quite  a number of hours, but this did not concern me all that much.  If it went past the time the last Campus Connector left, I'd just hang at Kleiner Commons (a food place at GVSU open 24 hours) until the first bus of the next day.
     Unfortunately the game ended somewhat early at around 10:00 PM.  This allowed me to catch the 10:10 Campus Connector, which would get me down town on time to catch either the second to last or last bus back to my dad's.
     I decided to walk to the Burger King across the street and get a bite to eat before catching the last bus.  This would have been fine, if I had disregarded the time on the wall clock near the front counter.  The clock indicated that it was sometime around 10:20 or 10:25.  I should have know this was wrong because it took the Campus Connector at least twenty minutes to get downtown and probably more like twenty-five or thirty.
     I had my Tendercrisp sandwich within the warm confines of the Burger King and read a David Eddings book, while I waited for the time t catch my bus.  Unfortunately I was going by the time on the at least ten minutes slow wall clock.
     I waited at the bus stop, expecting the bus to be there within ten minutes.  I saw a Campus Connector heading back to Allendale go by and then nothing for quite a while.  when a bus flashing a To Garage sign approached, I cautiously poked my head in to inquire whether it was a northbound number 9.
     The driver informed me that I was dealing with the last Campus Connector back into town, that I had missed the last number 9, and that it was around midnight.  Ever notice how bad news arrives like an avalanche, a lot of it all at once, and good news arrives a trickle most of the time.
     Now, I faced a choice: walk home through yucky weather, yucky neighborhoods, and possibly serious traffic or call home for a ride.  I decided to pursue the second option.  The trouble was finding a place to call home from.
     Downtown about the only places open at that advanced hour of the evening are bars.  Bars make me nervous.  I don't drink, so chances are I'd technically be loitering and drunks are often unpleasant folks to be around.  This meant some wandering about to find a pay phone.
     The first and nearest place to look for a pay phone was the strip mall with the Kinko's immediately across the footbridge near the bus stop.  Kinko's is open pretty late after all, and there was a new coffee house next door.  It turns out that pretty late is 11:00 according to Kinko's and that the coffee shop next door was also closed.  I don't know about you, but midnight with cold, rainy weather is precisely when I'm most wiling to part with three bucks or more for an overpriced mocha, particularly, if it means a chance to call home for a ride and a fairly clean indoor restroom to use.  A business would do well to take note of that.
     So, the Kinko's strip mall is no help.  Went to the next block eastward on Fulton where the BOB is and turned the corner to the little side street that connects that block to the one that Four Friends Coffee House and The Dog Pit are on.  I decided to head for Four Friends and hope for the best.
     The Dog Pit was open, and I decided to try later if circumstances led me to it.  Four Friends was closed.  At about this time, I had a brief conversation with a young fellow who looked Asian, who I think may be homeless.  He told me that at one time there were pay phones in the Monroe Mall park immediately across the street.
     I decided to try the Amway Grand Plaza Hotel first.  
If you're stranded and waiting for a ride, why not be stranded and waiting for a ride at the poshest joint in town?  Because they close their front doors at 10:00.
     So I went back to Rosa Parks Circle (the proper name for the park where the Monroe Mall amphitheater used to be).  No outdoor pay phones there.  Whatever happened to outdoor pay phones?  It seems like in my younger days I could have gone around that one block and found at least three.
     I tried TGI Fridays next because it was still open, but there was no pay phone in the entrance lobby.  I didn't really feel like having to tell the hostess that I just wanted to use the pay phone but was willing to make a token purchase of a Coke so as not be exactly loitering, so I moved on.
     Decided to try the BOB after all, and was stopped by the doorman who carded me.  As I was retrieving my wallet and getting my ID out, he asked if I was in just a T-shirt under my coat.  I admitted that I was dressed fairly casually, and he told me they probably wouldn't let me into the club dressed like that.  I decided to depart and not push my luck.
     I went back to the dog pit and inquired whether they had a pay phone.  The answer was in the negative, but I decided to buy a bowl of soup.  The menu board said that the soup for the day was clam chowder, but the guy behind the counter said that it wasn't actually clam chowder.  When pressed for specifics, he said words to the effect of he wasn't sure what kind of soup it was but it was pretty damn good.  Turns out it was white chili and indeed, pretty damn good.
     I decide to head out for Pearl Street, remembering that there were pay phones in the park in front of the Gerald R. Ford Museum.  I consider trying the Amway Grand Plaza again as I walk past the Pearl Street entrance, which was still open, but I figure that a place that swank is probably not kind to loiterers and bums, which they might consider me to be.
     I reach the park and find out the pay phones are no longer there.  This makes sense because my memory of them is from many moons ago when I was a young 'un.  I see a security guard outside the museum and ask where I might find a pay phone.  He confirms my memory that once there were pay phones in the park and then directs me to the Day's Inn across the street.
     I cross the street and enter the lobby of the Day's Inn.  I call my mom from a pay phone despite signs saying they are for guests only.  Anyway, I figure, if I'm in their lobby, I'm their guest, even if only for the time it takes for my mom to pick me up.  Since, it's One in the morning by the time I call her, my mom's first question was: are you in trouble?
     My answer was: no just a little stranded.
     I reserve the word trouble for things they write Irish folk songs about, like â,¬Å"Whiskey in the Jarâ,¬Â or Black Velvet Band.â,¬Â  If it doesn't involve seven long years transportation, right down to Van Dieman's Land, I hesitate to use the word trouble.
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