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Extremities of Warfare

Started by Tybalt, February 14, 2007, 07:36:27 AM

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Tybalt

One of the things I'm having a constant internal debate about in my head is how graphic to make the war my game is about.

To present a bit of context: one of my players was aghast at seeing a public garroting in the game, which I did not really make all that graphic. I know it was partly that the player needed to understand that it was actually a fairly straightforward form of execution, but I could tell that my player group were disturbed and it required some out of character discussion before they were okay with it.

Now given this: how can I present a situation where their characters' country is being overrun with refugees, deserters, raiders, foragers and worse? I had planned to depict stuff that is somewhat usual, like the giants gradually stomping their way southward, orcs overruning places and such, but while I want it to be serious, I don't want my players having nightmares.

Any suggestions on how I can do this? I want a sense of the horrors of war without going overboard.
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Matt Larkin (author)

Well, partly, I suppose it depends on how many gorey details you put in.  If you just tell them the giants are going X, then it's going to have a more removed, lighter tone.  If you describe the details and aftermath, then you're going to create a grittier, more realistic portrayal of the war.

Also, since they won't see everything first-hand, you could have them get the worst stuff in colorless reports.  A report that says giants are rampaging the countryside, while accurate, will be less powerful than being their seeing the guy dying who got stepped on.

I'm not sure you can portray the horrors of war half-heartedly, though.  Maybe you can.  But if your players  are squimish, then maybe it's not a good idea anyway.
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Túrin

I believe this is first and foremost something that you should discuss with your players. Speak of your dilemma (preferably without giving any plot twists away, obviously) and take a position as a group.

To me, it seems that in the end all you can do is decide where you want to be on the continuum between extreme graphic violence and completely gloating over it. This is an issue between you and your players.

Túrin
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"Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the Children of Hurin and all men be avenged." - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Shaping of Middle-Earth

snakefing

As Túrin said, you have to know what your players really want and are able to do (without destroying their fun). There are many ways to tell disturbing stories about war and its aftermath without getting into graphic gore. Some examples below. But they might still be too much of a buzzkill for your group.

These are real-life stories drawn from the headlines in our local paper over just the past few months:

A woman (a girl, really) who received a letter from her boyfriend proposing marriage. Later that same day, the Colonel shows up at her house with the we-regret-to-inform-you letter - her boyfriend is dead.

A pregnant woman whose husband will never come home again.

A soldier whose bunkmate committed suicide in Iraq, who suffered emotional problems as a result. She was given medical discharge. A month later, blind drunk, she enters the freeway going the wrong way and collides head-on with a family. She's dead, two members of the family are critically injured.

And these are just the effects from thousands of miles away. You can only imagine what it would be like to have to live in the middle of this.


Of course, there are the other common things you see. Entire villages that have no men. War orphans. Looters and deserters. Refugee problems that lead to food shortages that lead to riots.

There's lots of nasty stuff around a war, and not all of it is gore. But any of it can be quite disturbing if it reaches you in the right way. You have to pitch the level of specifics and the degree of personal involvement of their characters to what the players want to handle. Do they even want to be disturbed or challenged in this way?

Suppose the players find a homestead that's been attacked - the family is dead but they find an infant hidden in the back who is still alive. What would they do? Can they return it to a relative, or bring it to an orphanage? Will they, can they, interrupt their mission to care for it?
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Tybalt

Appreciate the thoughts, thank you all.

I think one of the things I will do is to put the more graphic stuff at a distance...have it told of and that sort of thing, but have the players find destroyed villages, have them meet peasants begging that justice be done, find abandoned children, possibly put them in a position to possibly rescue some people being kept by giants or ogres for the stewpot or in a slave coffle about to be taken for forced labour by Celtic or Orc warriors.  
le coeur a ses raisons que le raison ne connait point

Note: Link to my current adenture path log http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3657733#post3657733

Matt Larkin (author)

It sounds like a good plan, then.
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SDragon

Quote from: snakefing...

Of course, there are the other common things you see. Entire villages that have no men...

personally, this is a scenario i would avoid. even if the line between realism and immaturity doesn't get blurred with a group of strong, youthful males entering an entirely female villiage, there's still a big risk of two players getting into a fight over a comment that was viewed as sexist.
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Tybalt

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that last comment...
le coeur a ses raisons que le raison ne connait point

Note: Link to my current adenture path log http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3657733#post3657733

SDragon

which part?

not knowing your playgroup, i can't really say they'll react to scenario A in manner A, but i can give some possible reactions to a scenario. in the scenario of a villiage populated entirely with women, i see two possible gamewrecking scenarios:

* burly male adventurers suddenly become surrounded with pent-up women that haven't seen their husbands in oh-so-long. bow-chicka-bow-wow.

* player (or PC) makes a comment on gender differences (either real or perceived), and another player gets offended. enter large disagreement, and possibly even verbal fight.
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Commandant-General of the Honor Guard in Service of Nonsensical Awards.
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DMG 3.5
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Aztecs: Empire of the Dying Sun
Encyclopaedia Divine: Shamans
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Tybalt

I can't even imagine that being a problem in my group...clearly it has happened to you though. I think I'll take the risk all the same.
le coeur a ses raisons que le raison ne connait point

Note: Link to my current adenture path log http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3657733#post3657733

SDragon

honestly, that's never been a problem with any group i've been in, but not knowing your group, i have no way of knowing the probability of either of those problems.

to be fair, the first problem would be much more likely in any of the groups i've been in, but i can't say for sure; the scenario of a male-less villiage never happened in anything i've played or DM'ed.
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Fiendspawn
Opening The Dark SRD
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divine power
last poster in the dragons den for over 24 hours award
Commandant-General of the Honor Guard in Service of Nonsensical Awards.
operating system
stealer of limetom's sanity
top of the tavern award


[/spoiler][spoiler=Books I Own]
D&D/d20:
PHB 3.5
DMG 3.5
MM 3.5
MM2
MM5
Ebberon Campaign Setting
Legends of the Samurai
Aztecs: Empire of the Dying Sun
Encyclopaedia Divine: Shamans
D20 Modern

GURPS:

GURPS Lite 3e

Other Systems:

Marvel Universe RPG
MURPG Guide to the X-Men
MURPG Guide to the Hulk and the Avengers
Battle-Scarred Veterans Go Hiking
Champions Worldwide

MISC:

Dungeon Master for Dummies
Dragon Magazine, issues #340, #341, and #343[/spoiler][spoiler=The Ninth Cabbage]  \@/
[/spoiler][spoiler=AKA]
SDragon1984
SDragon1984- the S is for Penguin
Ona'Envalya
Corn
Eggplant
Walrus
SpaceCowboy
Elfy
LizardKing
LK
Halfling Fritos
Rorschach Fritos
[/spoiler]

Before you accept advice from this post, remember that the poster has 0 ranks in knowledge (the hell I'm talking about)

Tybalt

Well the thing is the village wouldn't just be a 'village of women'. It wouldn't be some kind of huge slumber party. I'm picturing it more that most of the buildings are destroyed and sacked, and a handful of the village's women and children managed to run and hide and are hiding among the ruins. Not a very attractive sight in my opinion but rather a sad one.
le coeur a ses raisons que le raison ne connait point

Note: Link to my current adenture path log http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3657733#post3657733