The Campaign Builder's Guild

So I posted this question on another thread, but thought I might move it here to avoid derailing that one:

"Um, what is it with you people and dark tones? They never get you down?" â,¬'me

"Are you kidding? Dark tones=High adventure! Temple of Doom style. It's the societies that actually function that are scary... like in Brave New World. Happy place... but the implications are really friggin' creepy."â,¬'beejaz

My question is really why the dark tones that seem to crop up whenever I start reading a setting here never just make people too depressed to want to bother?  (The worlds always seem to be on the brink of something catastrophic, or maybe are just dystopian.)  How great are your lives that seeing these things in your leisure activities doesn't bother you?

Dystopia, whether on a microcosmic or macrocosmic level, is the most common thematic element in highly-praised literature.

People like strife, people love to read about discontent and conflict. My question to you is what sort of setting are you running that doesn't employ some level of conflict?

PRETTY FREAK'N GREAT!!!


The question is, what kind of adventures would you go on in an utopian society? If the world is peachy and great what is there to save?

I have one nation in my setting so far that is prospering and peaceful. They have to deal with the occasional pirate when their ships are on open waters, but so do the other nations. Some of the comments I got said it was too peaceful. :)

Conflict and catastrophies are just easier to set up adventures for. There is a goal, stop the conflict or catastrophy.

Look at literature. Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Eragon, Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, any of the books by Clive Cussler, Tom Clancy's books, etc.. Each had a world or a small part of it on the verge of catastrophy in some form or another. Books or movies about farmers losing their land to a bank and need to raise the money in three weeks or they lose their farm are about a world (albeit a very small one) on the verge of catastrophy.

It is just easier and believeable than: "There is a dungeon over there with monsters in it that really isn't bothering anybody, but it's there"

The other popular world is that in which the catastrophy has already happened. The Postapocalyptic world is now rebuilding because the catastrophy could not be averted.

The adventures (those on the side of good) of both of these types of worlds are striving for the same thing. Utopia, or as close as they can get to it, but if there is evil still in the world then they may not reach it and have to face another catastrophic event.

I think all settings need at least a little darkness to them. There has to be Bad Guys(tm) for there to be conflict, and there has to be conflict before there can be any sort of interest whatsoever.

The alternative to a world that incorporates conflict is a setting with Funny Fuzzy Bunnies, rainbowcorns, and Pretty Pretty Princesses. That can only hope to hold interest for only a fleeting instant, and then conflict must be incorporated on some level ("Uh oh! The Funny Fuzzy Bunnies can't find any carrots! What can they do?").

I think the problem is when people make the (admittedly logic) assumption that if conflict = intrest, then more conflict = more intrest. Even in the darkest, grimmest settings, there still need to be a noticable amount of hope, even if it's in the form of suicidal vigilantes. Otherwise, all those cyberpunk 'runners would just become apathetic alcoholics, too beaten-down to care if they pass out in a puddle of sewage.

In either scenario (Funny Fluffy Bunny, or Depressed Alcohlic), adventurers, by their very nature, would cease to exist. The trick is to get as far away from one scenario as possible, without getting uncomfortably close to the other scenario's territory.

I think sdragon is the first one to really get my question: I'm not asking "Why don't you design uptopias?", I'm asking "Why do [on average of what I've found] your settings seem to contain some giant reeking shadowed thing of doom, even if it's just an attitude"?

It's a legitmate question.  I'm not expecting happy places.  I'm just very confused that you enjoy thinking up these settings that pretty much cackle and moan and say "There is no hope, give up now."  Where are the settings that say "Look, the place is messed up, but it's not impossible to live in"?

Media and how it runs stories are partially to blame for why I ask this question: too many rely on one great huge catastrophy that has be averted or something for their entire premise.  Not only does it get old, but after a while they're all the same.  I've seen great stuff that has all the conflict you say you like, but it's not the same as what came before.  Why is there so little of that stuff?

Well then, I haven't designed a setting that is depressing. Read Adveria. It is not impossible to live there and there is no real impending doom. A group of continents has just been discovered and expansion is around the corner

I must admit that as time has worn on I have begun to grow weary of seeing the term "Dark" being thrown around every second setting like some grand mystic koan.  Now let me stress for a moment that I have described my own setting (Dystopia) as "pretty friggin dark"; my original disclaimer in the first post was testament to how dark it supposedly was.  But I have since removed it, having been disenchanted with the concept of "darkness".

"But Angel, I have read your setting, and, well, It's still pretty friggin dark." (A statement straight outta nowhere)

To me, that is an error in understanding.  If one were to observe the themes of Dystopia, they would see Entropy, Fatality, Doubt and Delusion, Rebirth, Perception as Power, Prejudice and Terror and Wonder.  Some arguably dark themes, to be sure, but do not confuse theme with tone or purpose.

For Dystopia is not a dark setting.

Is there death?  Yes, but there is also resurrection.  Is there corruption?  You bet, but there is also the most glorious salvation.  Men, monsters, spirits and Gods have all risen through the ages, but while most fall, others have refused their seeming fate.  They have looked further than the sorrow of their own world, beyond even the senseless terror of Eternity beyond, and found the impetus of their own ascendance.  To rise beyond woe is the purpose of darkness.  It may very well be lightâ,¬,,¢s finest instrument.

I've had people call my setting Lovecraftian (and he was an influence of sorts), but it is hardly so.  Lovecraft wrote of hopelessness, the despair of mortal men without strength in the face of otherworldly monstrosities that defy our every notion of sense and cosmic propriety.  But hope is what fills my world; it has not deserted it and so Dystopia is not Lovecraftian.

However, you may notice that I did not list Hope as a theme.  With all the other elements described, and with whatever anxieties those elements inspire, hope is a thing that cannot be constrained to the setting itself.  If the aforementioned themes are the settingâ,¬,,¢s own, then Hope is the necessary final ingredient supplied by the reader and participant.  As in our world, so often seemingly bleak and uncaring, we must inject hope into a reality that would have none but for the grace of man.

For this reason I think itâ,¬,,¢s important to have multiple perspectives on a supposedly dark setting.  Saying â,¬Å"Itâ,¬,,¢s all going to shit and thereâ,¬,,¢s nothing you can do about itâ,¬Â doesnâ,¬,,¢t help anyone.  Allowing the players and GM to read their understanding/beliefs into a setting will expand its scope by orders of magnitude.  So fill your world with horrors and travesties, but leave an unwritten clause, the space into which the final liberating exponent can be bestowed.

For instance, though entropy and fatality are the first things defined in Dystopia, rebirth stands as their direct counterpoint.  Every death, then, presupposes a subsequent birth.  Then there is doubt, which casts all these things into disarray.  We may now question the finality of death, the inevitability of decay and the assurance of resurrection.  There is no hierarchy to the themes; rather, they are in a state of continual communication, and that communication inspires the settingâ,¬,,¢s final nature.

To give a final example, Iâ,¬,,¢m personally a fan of Buddhist imagery, though I donâ,¬,,¢t know if anyoneâ,¬,,¢s noticed it yet.  In fact, one of the most important entities in the setting is Omillion, the Bright God of rebirth (though he wears a thousand other faces).  In times of direst calamity and sorrow he comes, to dissolve the world and its troubles, then to reforge it anew.  For this reason, he might be the greatest saviour and foe of all men, for he refuses their ascension, as well as their ultimate fall.  His final nature is left to the players to decide, and that decision may make all the difference in the Cosmos.

Of course, thatâ,¬,,¢s me speaking for myself.  I canâ,¬,,¢t really speak for the other settings on these boards.  Iâ,¬,,¢ll only reiterate that I agree that one should not define a setting by its darkness â,¬' for that is only an absence of light and thus an empty thing indeed â,¬' and that the ultimate purpose of absence is to (eventually) be filled with something glorious.

NOTE: If you wanna know my typical player's attitude toward Dystopia, it can be summed up as "Wow, that's awesome!" "Whoa, that's fucked up!" and "Kyeahh, I kicked its head RIGHT OFF!"  There can be no finer response, methinks.

I must say, I find the idea "You need darkness to show off the light" to be one of the most idiotic concepts out there.  If you don't like the darkness alone for it's own merits then you don't like it.  There is no couching of this point for me, because I see so many people curse the darkness, light a candle, then curse the darkness even more.

QuoteThe alternative to a world that incorporates conflict is a setting with Funny Fuzzy Bunnies, rainbowcorns, and Pretty Pretty Princesses.

Wasn't that a GURPS book?


I'm really not a fan of the monolithic crawling evil. I've generally had more fun in games with corrupt officials, rampaging beasts, and untamed wilderness than ones with vampire infestations, demonic hordes, etc. I guess I just like the conflict to be more down-to-earth.

I think both darkness elements and light elements are both beautiful and both necessary, else you will have either a setting that says "give up now" or "let's go play in the sandbox". My setting Vilydunn is indeed dark, but I don't get depressed by it because it is also filled with some light elements (though whenever I posted the setting things were mostly darker, except for when the Verkem returned etc.).

I'm going to have to disagree with your opinion on the "need darkness to show off the light" concept. I think it's wholly necessary, though you don't have to show darkness as a bunch of demons lurking in the woods at night waiting to tear someone up. Vilydunn itself was originally (and kind of still is) the spawn of some really messed up dreams I've been having for a few years (not only am I frequently lucid dreaming, but I'm also losing touch with what is dream and what isn't). In it I created high amounts of darkness in order to make the light seem much more extreme as well, and also to get rid of a few fantasy stereotypes I think are stupid (as well as to add realism to some aspects, and take realism from others). On the contrast, I had for a short time a setting called Aath that wasn't very dark at all.

I agree with sdragon. You basically can't have a setting that doesn't have conflict, because adventurers are made for conflict. That's why they have weapons, cast damaging and dangerous spells, and have access to diplomatic resources of various kinds. To take Vilydunn as an example again, there was a lot of conflict, but it was spread out into different forms so as not to keep it so boring and uniform, and not to make it as dreary and melodramatic as it otherwise would have been. You had demonic and various other sinister things creeping around in the woods, you had rebel factions combating governments that were very reserved in their actions, you had war, and you had philosophical and advancement vs tradition conflicts. To top that off, you had things in the "happy" department such as the equivalents of modern-day celebrities and a large focus on entertainment, a heavy underlying exploration theme (though really only in the Golden Age material), and marvelous and unbelievable elements and achievements in science and quality of life. There were just a sea of spooky places and dark secrets because I liked them.

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the only settings I think are too dark are the ones where what the PCs do is always going to be fairly insignificant. Stuff like the WoD setting, or maybe ones where you get a major plot quest that basically says "you'll have to take this guy's lieutenant out because you'll never be strong enough to take him yourself, only the archons (or whoever) can do that". I find that it's pretty hard to be depressed in a setting when the characters really do great things, no matter how much evil or sorrow there is.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI must say, I find the idea "You need darkness to show off the light" to be one of the most idiotic concepts out there.  If you don't like the darkness alone for it's own merits then you don't like it.  There is no couching of this point for me, because I see so many people curse the darkness, light a candle, then curse the darkness even more.

You're exactly right.  If you don't like it, then you don't.

However, "You need darkness to show off the light" is not the metaphor I expressed.  I said that if darkness is absence, and light is presence, then the darkness is there (in gaming terms, to say nothing of reality) for the purpose of being defeated.  That's the difference between a setting that employs darkness and a setting that embodies it.  The former uses it as an obstacle for the protagonists to triumph over, while the latter allows for no triumph, only the opportunity for a sadistic creator to gloat over its impotent creations.

Its not about brief flickers of purity in worlds utterly rife with corruption, but rather a growing fire that spreads throughout the dark until it becomes an inferno.  Where once was shade, let there now be the sun's rising glory.  If you don't like that concept, it's fine with me, but please do not misinterpret.

(Having said all this, I do agree with Silvercat that light does not require darkness for justification.  That is a self-defeating perspective)

It seems this is the second time you have expressed this lamentation, and I fear you will come no closer to a satisfactory resolution.  We're not here to convince you to embrace the merits of shadow, but we would like to elucidate the personal merits of our perspective.

...But getting right back to the core of this thread, may I ask, why does it depress you?

How do I avoid getting depressed by dark settings? The same way I avoid getting depressed by dark chocolate-- it's just not something I find depressing to begin with.

Settings of monolithic and uninterrupted evil are about as interesting as settings of monolithic and uninterrupted goodness (which is to say, not very interesting at all.) Some sort of contrast is necessary to generate interest, and that's not news to anybody. Writers, artists, and musicians have understood that principle of contrast long before anyone ever thought of games like these, and it's a useful idea for setting designers to keep in mind, as well. Look at Hitchcock's famous "squeeze-release" techniques of filming his suspense movies: the man practically wrote the book on keeping an audience's interest, and the words he wrote in that book are "Use contrast."

I've read a lot of settings here, and I've seen a few that I thought might benefit from a little more conflict, and a few that might benefit from a little more hope. But I've never seen anything here that pursues either extreme to its catastrophic limit. I've never seen anything here that even comes close to the level of "depressing" me to the point where I couldn't continue reading. Maybe I just have an unusually high tolerance, but I doubt it.

Dark themes are a means to an end (one of many), and the desired end is "making something interesting." Dark themes are one tool among many in the writer's toolbox, the same way green paint is one color among many in a painter's palette. And while I doubt many masterpieces are created by painters who say, "I think I'll see how much green paint I can cram onto this canvas!", saying "I will never ever use green paint in my artistic career" is equally arbitrary. Let's face it: green paint is useful. Sometimes it does a particular job better than anything else you have at your disposal; sometimes you simply find yourself compelled to paint a spruce.

And to elaborate on the green paint analogy from my own perspective, green paint is hella useful because green is the color of a lot of plant life. And plants are pretty much a guarantee in a setting.

Take that how you will. :)

Quote from: The mighty rainbowcorn.[table=Rainbowcorn]
[tr][td]Size/Type:[/td][td]Large Magical Beast (Extraplanar)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Hit Dice:[/td][td]15d10 + 75 (157 hp)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Initiative:[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Speed:[/td][td]60 ft. (12 squares)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Armor Class:[/td][td]24 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection), touch 18, flat-footed 22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Base Attack/Grapple:[/td][td]Base Attack/Grapple: +13/+24[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Attack:[/td][td]Horn +23 melee (1d8+10+1d6 energy)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Full Attack:[/td][td]Horn +23 melee (1d8+10+1d6 energy) and 2 hooves +21 melee (1d4+3)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Space/Reach:[/td][td]10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. w/ horn)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Special Attacks:[/td][td]Horn of hues, prismatic heart, rainbow charge[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Special Qualities:[/td][td]Damage reduction 10/cold iron, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to poison, charm, and compulsion, low-light vision, spectrum shield, scent, spell-like abilities, spell resistance 20, wild empathy[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saves:[/td][td]Fort +16, Ref +12, Will +15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Abilities:[/td][td]Str 24, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 27, Cha 22[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Skills:[/td][td]Concentration +11, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (the planes) +8, Listen +15, Move Silently +12, Spellcraft +5, Spot +15, Survival +15 (+17 on other planes)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Feats:[/td][td]Alertness, Combat Casting, Run, Multi-attack, Skill Focus (Survival), Weapon Focus (Horn)[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Environment:[/td][td]Any outer plane.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Organization:[/td][td]Carnival (20-50 aasimar, human, and various humanoid carnival works plus 200% noncombatants plus 1d6 lantern archons plus 1d4 celestial dire lions plus 1d3 janni ringmasters[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Challenge Rating:[/td][td]13[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Treasure:[/td][td]Goods only[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Alignment:[/td][td]Always chaotic good[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Advancement:[/td][td]By character class[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Level Adjustment:[/td][td]--[/td][/tr]
[/table]

A rainbowcorn has deep sea-blue, violet, brown, or fiery gold eyes. Males sport a muave beard. They are usually draped with signs particular to their carnival and heavily decorated with jewelry. They never wear saddles.

A typical adult rainbowcorn grows to 8 feet in length, stands 5 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs 1,200 pounds. Females are slightly smaller and less garish than males.

Rainbowcorns are a specialized form of unicorn--protectors of traveling celestial carnivals. They travel with the show as it spans the planes, performing tricks of great skill for patrons and defending the festivities against any would-be attackers.

Rainbowcorns speak Common, Celestial, and Draconic.
Combat

Rainbowcorns viciously attack anyone who seeks to harm the carnival they defend. They either charge, impaling foes with their horns like horrible technicolor lances, or strike with their garrishly-colored hooves. The horn is a +3 magic weapon, though its power fades if removed from the rainbowcorn. It still makes a colorful desk ornament, though. They never retreat if any member or visitor to the carnival is in danger. If necessary, they attempt to protect allies with a well-placed wall of force.

Horn of Hues(Su)
A rainbowcorn's horn deals an additional 1d6 energy damage of a random type. Determine the type once each round. The horn glows a different, festive color with each energy type.

d6	energy
1	acid
2	cold
3	electricity
4	fire
5	sonic
6	negative (no damage to objects, heals undead)

Rainbow Charge (Su)
Whenever a rainbowcorn attacks with her horn as part of a charge, she deals an additional 4d6 energy damage of a random type.

d100	color	damage
1-20	Red	4d6 fire damage, Will save or blinded 1d4 rounds.
21-40	Orange	4d6 acid damage, Will save or nauseated 1d4 rounds.
41-60	Yellow	4d6 electricity damage, Will save or stunned 1 round.
61-80	Blue	4d6 cold damage, Will save or slowed 1d4 rounds, as the slow spell.
81-100	Brass	4d6 sonic damage, Will save or deafened 1d4 rounds.

Prismatic Heart (Su)
A rainbowcorn bleeds color. Reality altering color. Each time the rainbowcorn is struck in combat by a melee, non-reach weapon, the attacker must roll a Will save (DC 23) or suffer one of the following effects.

d6	color	effect
1	Magenta	dazed for 1 round.
2	Cyan	laugh uncontrollably for 1 round (as hideous laughter)
3	Azure	Fascinated for 1 round.
4	Fuchsia	confused, as the spell, 1 round.
5	Chartreuse	shaken for 1 round.
6	Aquamarine	teleported 1d10 x 5 feet in a random direction

Spectrum Shield (Su)
Whenever a rainbowcorn deals energy damage with its horn, it and all allies within 60 ft. are immune to that type of energy for 1 round.

Spell-Like Abilities

Rainbowcorns can use detect evil at will as a free action.

Two times per day a rainbowcorn can use greater teleport to move anywhere within the bounds of its carnival. It cannot teleport beyond the carnival's boundaries (usually marked by rope and welcome signs). Unlike its lesser unicorn cousin and their forests, it can return to the carnival from outside its bounds--a useful ability if the unicorn has to defend the carnival's retreat.
At will--detect evil; 1/day--greater teleport (to anywhere within 100 ft. of the carnival only), neutralize poison (DC 21); 3/day--cure serious wounds (DC 19), wall of force. Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Wild Empathy (Ex)

This power works like the druidâ,¬,,¢s wild empathy class feature, except that a rainbowcorn has a +6 racial bonus on the check.

Skills

Rainbowcorns have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.[/spoiler]