Magic: The Gathering as framework (now with cards!)

Xathan · April 27, 2007, 01:29:25 PM

Thanks Stu and Kalin for checking balance! I'll probably be posting them here for feedback, but if I have any particularly tricky ones, I'll definitely shoot them your way.

In fact, for your viewing pleasure, here is my first cycle of cards: the Rebuttals.

[spoiler]Enlightened Rebuttal WWW
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you gain 6 life.

Deceptive Rebuttal UUU
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you draw three cards.

Furious Rebuttal RRR
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has ~ deal five damage to him or herself.

Vile Rebuttal BBB
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts the top five of their library into their graveyard.

Stern Rebuttal GGG
Instant (Uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts a 3/3 elephant creature token with trample into play under your control.[/spoiler]

Thoughts? I know counterspells are more costly now then they were back when I was playing, which is why I made these 3 colored mana. I know they aren't very flavorful - don't worry, my next batch of cards will start revealing the worlds in which my setting will take place. (On a separate thread)

Xathan · April 27, 2007, 01:31:41 PM

Quote from: MustardI've played Magic in the past. Basically most of my Junior and Senior year of high school was filled with Magic. (Who needs classes. :) ). I stopped when Mercadia Mask came out. I didn't like the "free cards". (IE. This card can be played without paying the casting cost if you control a swamp, had three cards in your graveyard, or your oppenent picked his nose.) I play every now and again with the cards I do have, when my brother wants to play. I haven't made a deck in years. (sigh, I remember those days.)

Yeah, cards like that can be annoying, and there are alot of gimmicks in magic that can bug me, but I never let one wierd, off set *coughFutureSightcough*

SDragon · April 27, 2007, 02:01:16 PM

Quote from: MustardI've played Magic in the past. Basically most of my Junior and Senior year of high school was filled with Magic. (Who needs classes. :) ). I stopped when Mercadia Mask came out. I didn't like the "free cards". (IE. This card can be played without paying the casting cost if you control a swamp, had three cards in your graveyard, or your oppenent picked his nose.) I play every now and again with the cards I do have, when my brother wants to play. I haven't made a deck in years. (sigh, I remember those days.)

Well, darn.... My Affinity deck is my personal favorite....

Poseptune · April 27, 2007, 02:26:32 PM

I had a favorite deck once. It wasn't that good, but my friends had a hard time beating it. It was a black and blue deck. The blue was there to counter things until my land transformation cards came out. Then all lands were swamps even the opponents. Against a non black deck it was killer. Against a black deck it was able to hold its own. All of the black creatures had swampwalk. It was beautiful. Not overpowering, but I won the majority of the times I played with it. It was my favorite. It was stolen. :( Now my favorite is my silly grindstone/discard deck (it hardly ever wins, but it is annoying as heck :) ).

Back on topic:

The cards seem balanced enough with each other. You could have the black discard 3 cards or counter the spell, instead of from library to graveyard.

Polycarp · April 27, 2007, 04:42:06 PM

I played with a most excellent red/blue deck. The principle was very straightforward - counterspells and direct damage. Put a few sulfuric vapors into play, then use power drain to take all the opponent's mana, and launch some truly massive fireballs - all the while preventing the opponent from doing anything with a huge array of blue counters (counterspell/quash/force of will/etc). It didn't have a single creature but worked marvellously.

Quote from: Just XathanThanks Stu and Kalin for checking balance! I'll probably be posting them here for feedback, but if I have any particularly tricky ones, I'll definitely shoot them your way.

In fact, for your viewing pleasure, here is my first cycle of cards: the Rebuttals.

Maybe things have changed since my day, but counterspells were UU and didn't have optional "opt-out" clauses like these do. Unless cost dynamics have changed considerably I'd say all of these are underpowered.

brainface · April 28, 2007, 12:15:00 AM

QuoteUnless cost dynamics have changed considerably I'd say all of these are underpowered.

they have man, it's generally more expensive.
from a recent set(?):
1uu - counter target spell
from a slightly old starter deck:
2u - counter target spell unless controller pays 1; draw a card
2u - counter taget spell unless controller pays 4
3u - counter target non-blue spell

Deceptive rebuttal probably is underpowered, since it's blue. Someone else could probably give a long spiel on how much the pricing has changed.

Ghost · April 28, 2007, 02:29:12 AM

To keep on topic, i'll take a look at those ones you designed, JX.

Enlightened Rebuttal seems pretty good. I don't think I would change a thing.

Deceptive Rebuttal seems really good. You either counter the spell, or you draw 3, which will probably net you even more counterspells because you are so heavily into blue if you play this card.

Furious Rebuttal seems overpriced. If it's a game-winning spell you want to counter, then they'll want to pay the 5 life more. Quite a few decks will win before they are at 5 life or less.

Vile Rebuttal seems quite underpowered. Many decks today (and in all formats) take advantage of a full graveyard. Maybe it could be changed to them sacrificing a creature?

Stern Rebuttal seems pretty good, and well-designed.

SDragon · April 28, 2007, 09:14:06 AM

RW, would you mind creating your own thread for those? I've got a few comments, but I'd rather not take this thread off-topic.

On-topic, those look like nice cards, but they seem somewhat underpowered next to, say, Assert Authority. Have cost dynamics changed that much since Mirrodin?

Raelifin · April 28, 2007, 09:29:36 AM

Ack, I meant to get my existing mechanics up, but somehow it slipped.

The counterspells you made are broken. Sorry to say, but with the existing color pie they break quite a lot.

I'll start with the blue one. Three cards is so good that an opponent will always (unless in dire circumstances) have the spell countered. This means that it's basically a counterspell that costs one more mana than it needs to and will likely never see play.

The black counter is very weak. For three mana, all you'll do is knock a few cards into their grave. Black also doesn't put things from library to graveyard. You're better off with Glimpse of the Unthinkable.

White will just gain the life every time, so it's fairly pointless.

Red is probably the best, but red doesn't get counterspells. It breaks what red is and will mess up the balance.

Green is second, but it, too, cannot get counterspells. I know this might seem fairly arbitrary, but the color pie is balanced in a particular way, and giving one type of card to another color will not only mess up the balance, but it'll make each more bland.

The framework for Phaedoras: The AEther Orb will be up shortly.

Raelifin · April 28, 2007, 11:30:02 AM

Here ya go. Just fyi, I haven't playtested it yet. ;)

[spoiler]Phaedoras: The Aether Orb

Aether orb is designed for 2-5 players.

Play Areas
* Destiny: Deck
* Spiritworld: Discard
* The Beyond: Removed From Game
* Play Area: In Play
* Dreamspace: Hand

These are fairly self-explanatory.

Victory Conditions
A player wins if...
* they have no living opponents.
* they activate the Aether Orb (A special card).
* they fulfill their destiny (have no cards remaining in their deck).

Players are defeated if all of their home provinces are razed.

Card types
All cards in the Aether Orb behave in the same general way.

Turn Order
* Dream (Draw)
* Wake (Untap)
* Battle
* Build (Main)
* Rest (Discard)

Game Setup
Both players have decks composed of 60 cards and a number of Home Province cards. Each Home Province has a size value from 1 to 3, and the total size of all your home provinces must equal 3. At the start of the game, each player puts their home provinces into play and The Aether Orb is placed in the center of the table under nobody's control.

Each player draws a hand of five cards and then reveals the top card of their respective destinies. Each card has a "speed" value from 0 to 5. This comes into play later, but in the beginning, the player with the highest speed goes first. Cards revealed in this way are destroyed (sent to the grave). In the result of a tie, the tied players continue to reveal cards until the tie is broken.

The first player then takes his or her turn, starting with the Dream phase. After a player's turn, play proceeds clockwise.

Game Phases

All phases are identical in structure. A phase is composed of two steps:
* Tactics
* Effect

During the tactics step, all players have the ability to play cards or activate abilities in turn, starting with the active player. Abilities and cards have an indicator that states what phases they may be played or activated in. When the tactics step begins, a counter called "delay" is created with a value of 5. Cards may only be played if their speed value is greater than or equal to the delay and cards in play may only take an action if their speed value is equal or greater than the delay. Any time a player passes, the delay is reduced by 1, to a minimum of zero. If all players pass in sequence and the delay is at zero, the tactics step ends. The effect of a phase depends on the phase.

Dream: The active player draws two cards.
Wake: All cards (except those in a siege) the active player controls are refreshed.
Battle: (See Combat section)
Build: Nothing
Rest: If the active player has more than 7 cards in his or her dreamspace, he or she must discard down to 7.

Energy

As in magic, Aether Orb uses a tap mechanic. Tapping a card is called exerting it. If a card is exerted, it may not use any abilities that require it to exert.

Cards have three types of main text:
* Abilities
* Actions
* Reactions

Abilities are usually passive, or cannot be controlled by the player. An example ability is "Beasts at this location cannot be targeted with actions."

Actions are effects that are willingly activated during a tactics step. All actions state what phases they may be used in and have some kind of cost, usually exertion. An example action is "(Dream) Exert: Draw a card"

Lastly, Reactions are actions without a specific phase that are used to pay a cost. Cards, and some actions, require energy (mana) to play. As you declare that you are playing a card or using an action, you must then use reactions on any number of your cards to generate enough energy for the card's cost to be satisfied. Reactions may only be used in response to a card you play or an ability you activate. An example reaction is "(Reaction) Exert: [Shadow][Shadow]"
The major exception to reactions is battle, which is explained in the battle section.

In The Aether Orb, energy is in one of five different types:
* Wealth
* Power
* Cunning
* Spirit
* Shadow

Card Structure:
All cards have the following values:
* Name
The name of the card

* Faction
All home provinces must be of the same faction. If a card is not unaligned or of the same provinces as your home faction, it costs two additional [wealth].

* Type
A number of identifiers for the card. No direct effect on play.

* Cost
The number and type of energy needed to bring the card into play.

* Playtime
The phase(s) where a card may be played.

* Layer
See layer section.

* Traits
A number of pre-defined abilities. (Like Trample, Flying and Fear in Magic)

* Domains
See battle section.

* Speed
How quickly a card can act. See Game Phases section.

* Actions, Reactions, Abilities
See Energy section.

Optional Field Are:
* Tokens
A list of tokens that are added to a card when it is played.

* Defense
A number indicating how hard a location is to raze. See battle section.

* Size
A number that replaces Cost on Home Province cards.

* Sublayer
See layer section.

Layer
Each card in play belongs to a group. A card group is considered to be a single unit for many effects. A card in a group is considered to have a speed equal to the lowest speed in the group. Groups with one or more location cards are called terrains, groups without locations are called battalions.

The layer of a card determines what groups it may be played in. A layer 1 card may be played in any group or form a new group. A layer two card may only be played into a group with a layer 1 card. A layer three card requires a layer 2 card and so forth. A level 1 card may not support a level 3 card. If a group contains the required layer, a card is considered "supported." If a card in the group is destroyed and a layer ceases to be supported, all cards of that layer are destroyed.

For example, I play a Mountain Sanctuary with a layer of 1. Then I play a Naikakaii Veteran card with a layer of 2. I then play a Gentle Hymn card in the group, with a layer of 3. The opponent, seeing me do this, uses an assassin to destroy my Veteran. The Gentle Hymn, being unsupported, is also destroyed.

Every now and then a card will have a sub-layer. Sub-layers work just like regular layers with specific names, but a card must meet all layer requirements when played. A card with a layer of 3 and a sub-layer of shaman 2. This means that the card must be played into a group with a layer 2 card and a shaman layer of 1.

Tokens
Some cards use tokens. Tokens in Aether Orb are of one of three types:
* Blood
* Essence
* Luck

The effects of each token are described on the card. Some actions require removing a token, only tokens on the card may be spent.

The Aether Orb
The Aether Orb is a special card which starts in the center of the play area under nobody's control. In this state it is considered "lost." As an action during the build phase, the active player may spend 2 [Power] and exert a group to add the Aether Orb to that group. If the Aether Orb would ever be destroyed, it is instead returned to the center of the table and is again considered "lost." If the Aether Orb would be destroyed in battle, it is instead obtained by the victorious army and may be added to a group of the victor's choosing.

The Aether Orb
Unaligned
Artifact
Layer 3
Traits: Unique
Domains: All
Speed: 5
Reactions:
* Exert: SS || Exert: HH || 10 Essence: You win the game.
Actions:
* Main Exert: Draw a card.
Abilities:
* Whenever The Aether Orb exerts, put an essence token on it.

Tokens: Essence

Battle
The battle phase is actually a group of phases which work a bit differently than most. A player may skip their battle phase, if they choose.

*COMING SOON*[/spoiler]

Higgs Boson · April 28, 2007, 12:57:42 PM

I agree with Raelfin, but maybe you should make them multicolor.

Raelifin · April 28, 2007, 02:41:00 PM

Yeah, they could be cool substitutes if you did:

QuoteEnlightened Rebuttal UW
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you gain 5 life.

Deceptive Rebuttal 1U
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has you draw two cards.

Furious Rebuttal UR
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent has ~ deal four damage to him or herself.

Vile Rebuttal UB
Instant (uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent discards two cards at random from his or her hand.

Stern Rebuttal UG
Instant (Uncommon)
Counter target spell unless an opponent puts two 1/1 green saprogling tokens into play under your control.

Ghost · April 28, 2007, 05:53:01 PM

Quote from: CornRW, would you mind creating your own thread for those? I've got a few comments, but I'd rather not take this thread off-topic.

On-topic, those look like nice cards, but they seem somewhat underpowered next to, say, Assert Authority. Have cost dynamics changed that much since Mirrodin?

Ack. Sorry about that, i'll take the link out now.

Polycarp · April 29, 2007, 04:31:16 PM

I feel like an old man in this thread. Give me back my Antiquities!

The_Stu · May 01, 2007, 08:22:53 PM

Hmmmm *looks over cards*

The Blue one is most definitely broken... try drawing just one or two cards.

The Red one is nearly a copy of:
Dash Hopes BB
Any player may pay five life, if a player does so, counter Dash Hopes.
Counter target spell.
But i kinda like your red version of it! Goes along with Book Burning, Skullscorch, Brow Beat, and that other one... all from Oddessey block.

Green is awfully hard to balance in a situation like this...if its a small spell it'll get countered, if its a card big enough to take care of a 3/3 elephant, then its never countered. Hard to say here

Black - i say go for discarding cards. That way the card has synergy with hand manipulation. It'd be really mean in decks that get rid of your opponents hand, since even if they top deck amazingly well, you still have an answer. This however, does lead to the inevitability that discard would have a high possibility at becoming a tier 1 deck for standard metagame.

white - not bad. Hard to balance (see green, replacing 3/3 elephant with 6 life.), but overall seems decent.

Other than that, i'd say make them one colorless mana in the cost instead of three colored (1WW, 1UU, 1BB, 1RR, 1GG)

The Campaign Builder's Guild

News:

Magic: The Gathering as framework (now with cards!)

Xathan

Xathan

SDragon

Poseptune

Polycarp

brainface

Ghost

SDragon

Raelifin

Raelifin

Higgs Boson

Raelifin

Ghost

Polycarp

The_Stu