The Campaign Builder's Guild

Hey, they could be somewhat alike to the muslim nations of the medieval period (i.e. much more advanced than the empire in certain areas).

So how many rings should there be? AND Should they be on the same plane?

probably better posted in the rings thread, so I will post it there as well

Quote from: Poseidon

Quote from: Uranium-238I was just thinking, while i was looking at the rings thread. i was wondering, maybe we could have a primitive culture, like a barbarian tribe or something, or maybe even not primitive, anyways, how abouts having a culture that worships the rings themselves as gods, or they worship whatever they believe created the rings and believe that the rings themselves are religious symbols or something like that.

I like it. To expand, depending on how many rings that are decided upon, this civilization could use each of the rings to symbolize the virtues by which they live by. The number is very important to them, and holds special meaning in their civilization.

Nine rings, one for each arcane school. Since the rings are magical, would this religion reflect that? If so, I picture it similar to how our modern world tends to view medieval alchemy: a crude method of mashing religion and magic together, in effort to get scientific results.

how about they believe that there is no arcane magic, since it is "granted by thier gods", arcane magic is just what "barbarians" call it. so they think that there is only divine magic and that arcane magic is a part of that.

Quote from: TúrinWhat exactly should I picture when you say "death" is a totem god?

Okay, I had originally read this wrong, but the idea that came from it is... interesting, to say the least.

what I had read was,

QuoteWhat exactly should I picture when you say the "death" of a totem god?

have[/i] to be intense, to kill something otherwise invulnerable. If an idea like this is somehow taken up, I'd personally suggest reading just about anything by Neil Gaiman for inspiration, or at least some sort of idea of how intense this should be.

Keep in mind, of course, rarely have any of these divine deaths been permanent. Gods always seem to have some way of coming back.

Quote from: Uranium-238how about they believe that there is no arcane magic, since it is "granted by thier gods", arcane magic is just what "barbarians" call it. so they think that there is only divine magic and that arcane magic is a part of that.

I kinda like that. What if we say that both groups-- the "barbarians" and the religious mages-- both consider their kind of magic "divine", and the magic of the other group "arcane"?

Would it be wrong to just rid ourselves of the distinction, at this point?

It would seem not, my good fellow beejazz.
I believe that they are their opposites.

Quote from: beejazzWould it be wrong to just rid ourselves of the distinction, at this point?

Mechanics-wise maybe, truth-wise maybe, but the two groups could still use the two terms as suggested.

So we've got "ring" magic (arcane, mechanically), and... what, "totem" magic (divine, mechanically)?

Totems and saints are divine.

I assume you mean mechanically? Unless we don't go with the whole thing where both groups consider their own magic "divine", and all other magic "arcane", that is.

To help with clarification, can we capitalize the words "Arcane" and "Divine" when talking about the magic from a mechanical standpoint, and leave them uncapitalized when talking from an in-world perspective?

Well... "divine" would mean granted by divinity, where "arcane" would really only mean secret. Psychotic nihilists could use divine magic from a sympathetic deity, while anyone who uses it wouldn't necessarily be ashamed of something just because it's secret (arcane) or hidden (occult) from everyone else. If anything, that's their problem.

If people are going to throw dirt on one another's magic, a better word might be "eldritch" or "fell"... just a thought.

These are the suggestions that still haven't been finalized. I think all of the ideas can be used at the same time. I will post how later, but for now the suggestions: (Yes I read them all, it looks like a lot, but many say the same thing.)

[spoiler=Pantheon]
[spoiler=Division of religions:]In civilized societies religions could be much more traditional with cleric based churches, but in the wilder untamed lands, barbarians and shamans would serve the Totem gods almost directly (like the natives who worshipped Kong, on Skull Island).

What I suggest is that one culture worships, respects, and recognizes the totem gods as their religion. However, perhaps another nation, such as the big tyranny which has been discussed, has another religion, a group of deities which holds the totem gods at bay, perhaps with smaller numbers but greater individual power. These gods could be similar to those standard D&D deities, or they could not. But they all maintain sole influence in their domain and the faith of their worshippers gives them the power necessary to protect the populace from the "fiends beyond the sea". Neither side should necessarily be evil, but they are in conflict, perhaps an unsolvable conflict that is untouchable by the PC's. The gods are in a stalemate, and this greatly affects the world their conflict is in

For instance, what about a world where true deities don't exist, and "divine spells" are actually a form of enlightenment of the "inner self?" Then, you have religions that spring up based solely on concepts. People would worship "The Sun," and "The Harvest," and "The Wanderer," (who may just be an entirely made-up aspect of a mythological protector of people who travel, or something along those lines). The clerics then, devoted to specific ideas, reach enlightenment based on those ideas around level 1, and are able to manipulate their chi (or whatever you want to call it) based on the portfolio of the concept they follow....

Could we do where like, cities (the city-forts?) worship 'regular' gods, or maybe just 'concept-gods', while those in the wilderness and more uncivilized places worship the totems? some more uncivilized cities may have cults or outright churches to the totems. make it kinda a law vs. chaos thing? (with the totems def. more chaotic).

The worship of 'concept-gods' would generally give a place more order and structure, with an emphesis on ritual, holidays, whatever; while the totem gods would be better at warfare, changing the weather, various more visible and violent acts. also, you could point to a totem god, whereas a 'concept god' would require more faith?

I say we do concept gods for the "empire", and totems for the city-states. Maybe tone back the destructive aspects of the totems a bit so they don't blow up their own culture...
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Single Pantheon Multiple Religions:]Just for simplicity's sake, let's say there's 1 pantheon. All the gods in the universe belong to this same pantheon/family/group. However, within that group, are various religions. For instance, there could be the religion of "Elementalism," where followers of that religion acknowledge all the deities of the elements (earth, wind, fire, water, heart <--- ?? ), and perhaps bring each of theme into their daily lives. A worshipper of elementalism would thank the Earth God for a bountiful harvest, and the fire god for a warm home in the winter. Another religion within this pantheon could be "The Protectors," a group of mostly good and probably-mostly-lawful deities whose portfolios involve the protection and wellfare of people. One could be the god of healing, while another could be the god of warding, etc, etc. Another religion could be "The Shadow," which would be a term used to descrive the deities in the pantheon that are less-than-savory, such as gods of death, strife, mayhem, torture, and ickiness. Most people would fear "The Shadow," perhaps offering a fearful prayer to the god of death for him not to take up their loved ones. Actual worship of these darker gods would probably belong mostly to cults and fanatics.

Quote from: Totems as giant creatures:Totems could be large, high level creatures that every so often (years, decades, centuries) battle, it is up to the civilization to appease their Totem before it destroys their, or a neighboring, civilization. However the consensus is that they should probably be just be creatures and should not be let loose upon cities. The problem is what happens if a party, civilization, or other force destroys the Totem. What happens to the culture that was worshiping it? So we could give them near immortality, so the Empire can still kill some in the past. The creatures would be creatures CR10 and above. Some sleep, some are active. Each would be a creature found in the SRD.

As for the totem's actual size: i think it should vary from Huge - Colossal, with the average being 'Gargantuan'.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Totems as creations of another race:]How about a progenitor race, from eons ago, that actually created monstrous versions of creatures they knew to be alive. Maybe this ancient race knew the machinations of clockworks and gears, and was able to create what would essentially be called robots. Large constructs of iron, brass, gears, lubricants, and various weapons that could be activated with the right power source. There would be a clockwork version of a roc, but even larger than an actual roc. Anyway, the progenitor race died away, and then several millenia later, some foolish humans (who else?) stumbled upon one of these constructs. When accidentally activating it, it activated all of them (possibly at least a dozen, possibly many, many more), and lead to what sages and lorekeepers call some generic hostile time in the past (such as "The Year of Flame," or "The Nine Days of the Shaken Pillars of the Earth," or something along those lines). The constructs were eventually allowed to sleep again, and were hidden by the people who found them, to be worshipped as gods. Thus, maybe only 10 of them survived, so there are ten very large, and very distinct cultures out there who worship these constructs as gods, and literally draw power from them (possibly from the power source within the constructs). Thus, they would see the natural versions of the represented creature to be avatars of their "god." If a real roc flew overhead - or lived nearby - the culture who worshipped the construct roc, they would view it as either a terrible omen, or a special blessing. The roc would be a religious symbol.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Saints]The bad-ass empire had a bad-ass totem, went around smashing stuff. The first God was the man who killed this totem, and then united an empire. His Son led a great rule of fair-treatment and rights, probably a portfolio of community, good, agriculture, etc. His son was a tyrant who overtaxed the people, then was overthrown by the god of liberty and freedom, who usurped the throne afterwards. This guy's son went out and made the currently free city-states pay tribute, becoming god of wealth and good-fortune. His daughter ended up taking the throne, and as the empire cracked and weathered, she lost her mind, demanding that the portions which were disloyal be burned, becoming goddess of insanity, anarchy and fire. The empire fell apart after this, as her only child was spirited away by a general fearing for it's safety after his mother's actions. Now, the grandson of the runaway child and the great-grandson of the general conspire together to rebuild the empire, with the empress's great-granddaughter having his eyes set on godhood.

The saints of the empire should not all be various emperors...that's too narrow. Some could have been great generals or champions; others could have been teachers or sages, while some could have been powerful wizards or cunning tricksters.

If the saints are various people (maybe even great adventurers) who ascended to divinity at various points during the reign of the old empire, they may even be pushing their priesthood to restore the empire. If they come from diverse backgrounds then many more people within the new empire will support this push to rebuild; the movement will have a much better chance of success if they draw from all walks of life, and promote the fact that the saints themselves were once mortal, so they have the interests of the mortals themselves in mind in their objectives; they would most likely think of the totem gods as archaic entities that serve their own impulses, rather than the good of mankind.

This line of thought enables us to make a diverse pantheon which appeals to all people, portfolios, ideals, alignments, etc. The fundamental difference between the imperial saints and the totem gods is a conflict of new vs. old, civilization vs. barbarism, and mankind vs. totem beasts.

The old empire may have originally worshipped the totem gods, but gradually shifted away from them to worship their own champions...this religious division may in fact have been the root cause that led to the fall of the old empire...

Perhaps the people believe in the innate divinity of their rulers ("chosen by fate/gods" or some such) and that belief is so powerful the rulers ascend? If there haven't been any ascensions in awhile, it's because the new rulers of the empire haven't inspired the fervent loyalty and faith that the rulers of the older empire had. Drop in population would affect them as well.

What about a reincarnation/soul transference thing? The gods send portions of themselves in new rulers, and these seeds of divinity allow the rulers to become gods (or saints or whatever) upon death? Maybe gods fight over who gets to put their particular divine spark in the new ruler? Imagine Devious trying to put a bit of his dark soul in the new king, but Garett has to beat him to it. Maybe it's ritualistic thing that occurs when the king is crowned? Or maybe they're born with it? Would the gods be racing to get their souls into rulers? Would they have a measure of control over the soul recipient?

Idea: Devious, being a lich, knows a thing or to about storing the soul somewhere safe. What if he hid a bit of his soul in the ancestral crown? No matter who gets their soul in the ruler, Devious always has some measure of control over the king as long as the crown is on his head. That way he doesn't have to worry about the bickering over who gets the next ruler and he can focus on more important things.

[spoiler=Lady Lauren]
Mistress of the Waters, Lady of Sorrow
Alignment: CN
Portfolio: The Sea, Freedom, Sadness, and Beauty
Domains: Water, Chaos, Weather
Worshipers: Sailors, Lovers, and Fishermen
Favored Weapon: Net
History:  In life, Lady Lauren was a royal princess due to be married to a neighboring state as an alliance.  Unfortunately, she was already in love with a local fisherman, and so she fought the engagement.  Rather than be married unhappily, she committed suicide by diving into the Bay of Tears.  King Theo took pity on her wretched spirit, and granted her divinity.  She now works to protect the people of the Empire from within the pantheon.  Her slergy is almost exclusively female, and worship is centered around her greatest temple, which floats by her divine will on the waters of the Bay of Tears.  Her ghostly form appears during ceremonies, manifesting as a beautiful maiden in a drenched wedding gown, weeping black tears.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Lord Darrin]
Lord of Battles, the Burning Death
Alignment: LE
Portfolio: Power, Battle, Tactics, Vengeance
Domains: Fire, War, Destruction
Worshipers: Soldiers, Kings, and those seeking vengeance
Favored Weapon: Longsword
History: A scheming and brilliant general int he Imperial army, Darian wasn't just destined for greatness, he had achieved it.  his ruthless campaign to gain power had seen him rise in rank rapidly, and his tactical brilliance made him worthy of his new prestige.  Through any means neccessary, he had achieved power, and in tragedy his power was lost.  Becoming paranoid about treachery, he began an inquisition among his forces, striking without warning or good reason.  Because of his lack of faith in his troops, they left him one day before a battle, letting the enemy destroy him.  King Theo promoted him as a god to watch over the Empire's wars after death, but he still seeks vengeance for his death.

Priests of Darian are often trained in the ways of war, and become great leaders.  They often train in the arts of war to better serve the will of their lord and master, the embodiment of war.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Lord Garett]
The Duelist, The Honorable
Alignment: LN
Portfolio: Duels, Honor, Luck, Music, and the Wind
Domains: Air, Law, Luck
Worshipers: Bards, Gamblers, Diplomats, and Travelers
Favored Weapon: Rapier
History: A folk hero to all, this honorable rogue brought joy to the people and confounded the imperial guard to no end.  Seeking to establish the value of honor, he sought never to break a law, and to spread happiness everywhere.  His lute is famous for the soothing effect it had on his foes, and his blade was famous for putting to rest those who ignored his warnings.  Traveling the empire, he always had a story to tell and a quest to continue.  Eventually, he was captured and killed by Lord Darian under the charges of being a spy, to which he objected vehemently.  One unfair trial later, the greatest hero of the empire was hung from the gallows.  Given a chance to continue his mission of joy, he was given divinity by King Theo, and now he gains pleasure from seeing his stories live on.

Priests of Garett are generous, well mannered, and always keep their word.  Honor is of utmost importance, and mercy shortly follows it.  They seek to spread joy throughout the land, and their stories put dreams of glory into the hearts of many young children.  The priests are welcomed into any home, as it is said those who shelter one are blessed with good luck for a great time afterward.  Since the clergy is always traveling, Garett has no temple but the home of a willing host.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=King Theo]
The True King, the First Lord
Alignment: LG
Portfolio: Nobility, Peace, Happiness, and Order
Domains: Law, Good, Earth, and Protection
Worshipers: Rulers, Citizens of the Empire
Favored Weapon: Heavy Mace
History:  A simple farmer possessing a virtuous spirit, Lord Theo gathered a loyal band of mercenaries and assembled the Empire at the very beginning.  Since the beginning, he has watched over his kingdom from beyond death, and will continue to do so until the end of the world.[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Archmage Devious]
The Father, Lord of the Arcane
Alignment: LE
Portfolio: Magic, Death, Betrayal, Knowledge
Domains: Magic, Death, Knowledge, Evil
Worshipers: Necromancers, Criminals, and Outlaws
Favored Weapon: Quarterstaff
History: The first archmage's true name has been lost to time, so now they call him Devious.  He was advisor to King Theo, and was his childhood friend.  Although evil at heart, the Archmage understands the value of trust, and works to keep the empire alive and thereby preserve his own divinity.  He was the Empire's second ruler, as declared by the will of king Theo.  He was deposed after achieving Lichdom however, and this angered him so greatly that he cursed all who would take the throne.  Now, directly responsible for the empire's first fall and driven to madness by the betrayal of his kingdom, he sits plotting his revenge and dispensing his arcan knowledge to those wo seek it and would pay the price.

The Worshippers of the Archmage Devious are rarely priests, and often whisper their prayers in fear.  He has no official temples, although his blessing is said to lie on the Imperial archives.[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Rings as Totems]Maybe we could have a primitive culture, like a barbarian tribe or something, or maybe even not primitive, anyways, how abouts having a culture that worships the rings themselves as gods, or they worship whatever they believe created the rings and believe that the rings themselves are religious symbols or something like that.

To expand, depending on how many rings that are decided upon, this civilization could use each of the rings to symbolize the virtues by which they live by. The number is very important to them, and holds special meaning in their civilization.

Nine rings, one for each arcane school. Since the rings are magical, would this religion reflect that? If so, I picture it similar to how our modern world tends to view medieval alchemy: a crude method of mashing religion and magic together, in effort to get scientific results.
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I vote yes for the Rings as Totems idea.

On the Saints, I say we should mix Poseidon's history and this together so that four gods were sent down to earth for meddling... and Theo was one of them (Silde). Although questionably good and certainly ruthless in life, upon ascension (his only way of escaping death) he became what the people thought he was - a benevolent ruler. As for the other saints, those can have followed Theo's example in a way (although they evidently had no illusions about Garret).

I see the Ring-Worship thing as a good base for maybe an islamic-type culture (middle-ages), much more advanced in medicine, science etc than the Empire but tieing it into religion. Either way though, I think we should definitely have it as a culture.

As to the totems - having them as enormous constructs sounds awesome! I'm getting images of creatures built like Aztec statues and masks with whirring gears on the inside...