The Campaign Builder's Guild

I was browing some stuff for game and world development, when I came across the Class Construction Engine. I think I might have seen something similar before, and I imagine it's a fairly popular document, but for those not familiar with it, it can be found at http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/download/classconstruction.pdf

Now, I'm no expert at d&d mechanics, but as I was looking at this, I noticed a few things that seemed.... Well, for lack of a more technical term, "wonky". First, sorcerors are listed as the least powerful class, and bards are listed as the second most powerful. Druids, according to this, are the most perfectly balanced class, according to this, as they fall exactly on the average. I'm not going to get into a "which class is the best" discussion, but this seems a bit off, when you consider that a sorceror could take a d12 HD and simple weapon proficiency, and be even with bards.

Another thing is that the section on saves doesn't really go into the different types of saves; It pretty much just assumes that you're choosing a "saves package" from one of the core classes. Some major tweaking would be needed if you wanted more versatility in a class's saves.


Since we have some members that actually are experts at d20 crunch (*looks for Xeviat*), I suspect we could do much better then what's already there. Volunteers, anybody?

I suspect we could too.

Once I get some time (read June 4th), I'll take a look at this and help out.

Have you already tried this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=282481 ? It is a similar approach, but imho better balanced. The problem is that some things are dependent on each other (like # of weapon proficiencies and BAB), and simply assigning each an individual, independent, numerical cost won't work.

That system is a mess. It gives monk the highest numbers. WTF?
'Familiar' is an excellent ability?
BAB, weapon and armor proficiencies are valued. *Cough*
Plus all skill points are valued equally? Wrong, dead wrong.

HD are also over valued in this system.
Alignment restrictions? Those are story effects.

Then all spells are valued equally. REGARDLESS OF LEVEL!!! That's just stupid on it's own.

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I have not nice things to say about this 'engine'.

In any case, the best way to determine how powerful a class is is by calculating it's ability to win fights. The standard bar that was set up for D&D is a 20% percent expenditure of resources removes 25% of the enemies. On average.

OR: A single lone character can defeat 50% of the enemies of a CR equal to his ECL.

After many years of game design I am of the opinion that (in d20 at least) the whole is more than the sum of the parts. No matter how precise an "class construction engine" is, it won't take into account the subtilties that result in a balanced or "wonky" class.

The best class construction engine I have seen to date is, oddly enough, the one from the BESM game system. My own system is loosely based upon theirs.

My system works off of the following principal: a feat is worth 2 points. Every ability in the game can be priced against feats. When I tested my system against the core classes, cleric and druids came out high, fighters and sorcerers came out low, and suprisingly, the ranger came out high (because it has so many special abilities). I'm not a fan of how I had to fandangle the spell pricings, but I wanted it for the non-casters mainly.

I would love to work with members of these boards to make a reasonable class balance estimator. I'll post my full system soon, so we can discuss it.

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Edit: Aww, I just noticed that I was summoned in the original post. Funny, that I'm so predictable that I'd stumble upon a thread which called for me without realizing I was called for. Because of that, I will post my system right now.

Xeviat's Class Calculator

Function: 1 Feat = 2 points.

Class Features Character Points Evaluation
HD: 0.4 points per hit point (Based upon the notion that 5 HP for a feat would be balanced; we all know 3 HP for a feat isn't)
d4   20 (1 point per level)
d6   28 (1.4 points per level)
d8   36 (1.8 points per level)
d10   44 (2.2 points per level)
d12   52 (2.6 points per level)
SP: 0.4 points per skill point (Based upon Open Mind, a feat from XPH that grants 5 skill points)
2   16 (0.8 point per level)
4   32 (1.6 points per level)
6   48 (2.4 points per level)
8   64 (3.2 points per level)
BAB: 3 points per attack bonus (I made an attack bonus point worth slightly more than a feat because +1 to attack is a feat if it only applies to one weapon)
1/2   30 (1.5 per level)
3/4   45 (2.25 per level)
1/1   60 (3 per level)
Saves: 1 point per point (+2 to a save is a feat, so +2 to a save is 2 points)
High   10 (1/2 per level)
Low   5 (1/4 per level)

Ability
Proficiencies:   1 per; count all martials as 2 points, all simples as 2 points, each armor proficiency as 1 point, shields as 1 point; this is very debatable, though.
Animal companion:   2
Bardic knowledge:   2
Bardic music 20/day:   10
Bonus feat:   2
Camouflage:   1   
Countersong:   0.5
Damage reduction 5/â,¬':   5
Divine grace:   2
Domain powers (each):   2
Evasion:   2
Fascinate:   0.5
Fast movement (10 ft.):   2
Favored enemy (5):   10
Granted Feat:   1
Greater rage:   2
Hide in plain sight:   2
Immunity to Poison:   2
Improved evasion:   2
Improved uncanny dodge:   2
Indomitable will:   1
Inspire competence:   0.5
Inspire courage +4   2 (0.5 per increase)
Inspire greatness:   0.5
Inspire heroics:   0.5
Ki strike (adamantine):   1
Ki strike (lawful):   1
Ki strike (magic):   1
Mass suggestion:   0.5
Mighty rage:   2
Nature sense:   1
Perfect self:   2
Purity of body:   2
Rage 6/day:   7
Resist natureâ,¬,,¢s lure:   1
Smite 5/day:   5
Sneak attack +1d6:   2
Song of freedom:   0.5
Special ability (Rogue):   2
Special mount:   2
SR 10+level:   4
Still mind:   1
Suggestion:   0.5
Summon familiar:   2
Swift tracker:   1
Timeless body:   2
Tireless rage:   2
Trackless step:   1
Trap sense +6:   3
Turn or rebuke undead:   2
Turn undead (-3 levels):   3
Unarmored AC bonus (Wis +4):   5
Uncanny dodge:   2
Wild empathy:   1
Woodland stride:   1

I'm still reworking the spell calculator, because my original was based on my MP system. This system balanced out to 200 points for most classes, with Cleric and Druid coming in high (around 220), and fighter and sorcerer coming in low (around 180). Ideally, a class would be designed to have 10 points per level, which allows me to gauge level adjustments (though level adjustments deserve an ad-hoc point increase for a lack of HD; while I priced the HP, BAB, Skills, and Saves that come from HD, I didn't price the HD themselves).

So, can this be used as a basis of discussion?

In all honesty, there is a severe flaw in my system: it assumes that 5 HP is worth a feat. It isn't. HP is a resource that increases as you gain levels, automatically. Improved Toughness is worth a feat.

At the core of the feat balance system, +1 to an ability score should be worth a single feat. This helps to determine the value of feats, because +2 to an ability score would be two feats. +2 to an ability score, like Con, boosts HP by 1 point per HD, boosts Fort saves by 1, and boosts Con skills by 1 (there's only one Con skill though, but there are raw several uses for raw Con checks). Thus, I believe 1 hp/HD is a feat, and similarly 1 skill point/HD is a feat (and it is; Nymph's Kiss from Book of Exhalted Deeds).

But such a calculator would require basic HD to be priced. I believe that +1 HD would have to be worth a feat for simplicity, since it would grant so much in such a system. The value of the class's HD size would have to be dispersed amongst their levels, which hurts the 10 points per level goal.

As you can see, I've put thought into this. I will be posting numbers from my 2 points is 5 HP assumption, since that's what the core system has right now, just to show you what they look like. I'll only test the non-casters for simplicity, though that's really only 4 classes in the PHB (though I think I can make some assumptions of the supposed Ranger and Paladin spellcasting ability, based on the non-casting versions from several sources).

Expect more soon.

Quote from: XeviatThe best class construction engine I have seen to date is, oddly enough, the one from the BESM game system. My own system is loosely based upon theirs.

My system works off of the following principal: a feat is worth 2 points. Every ability in the game can be priced against feats. When I tested my system against the core classes, cleric and druids came out high, fighters and sorcerers came out low, and suprisingly, the ranger came out high (because it has so many special abilities). I'm not a fan of how I had to fandangle the spell pricings, but I wanted it for the non-casters mainly.

...

So, can this be used as a basis of discussion?

That's actually quite interesting. I think I remember reading something somewhere on the WotC optimization board that saig Cleric and Druid are the most powerful core classes. Assuming this is accurate, it's a sort of confirmation, no?

And yes, I think this would be wonderful as the basis of discussion.

In the hands of a novice, the Cleric and Druid are fine; they're usually instantly relegated to bandaid status. In the hands of an experienced player, and especially an experienced party, they're the most powerful classes in the game, followed by the wizard, and then everyone else.

So yeah, it was confirmation to me.

Doh! I had a whole post written out, and now I have to rewrite it!

I re-ran my class calculator against the PHB non-casters, utilizing the Complete Warrior non-caster versions of the Paladin and Ranger. The Monk and Rogue came out reasonably balanced, with the Rogue falling behind by only 6 points (since it has 2 empty levels, I could easily see putting an ability in each, and thus it would only be behind by 2 points); the Barbarian and Monk came out perfectly to 200 points, though I must admit that the Monk was only balanced because I reduced the value of any ability that was negated by armor or only useful while unarmed.

The Barbarian comes out 10 to 5 points too high; I initially forgot to put their Damage Reduction in, and now I have to decide if 1/- DR is worth a feat, or 2/- DR (I want to say 2/- is a feat, since +2 damage is a feat).

The Paladin and Fighter both fell behind by exactly 20 points. I agree with the fighter being 20 points behind, and interestingly this would be fixed by adding a special ability at 1st and every odd level (which is very similar to the Starwars Saga Edition Soldier, who gets a bonus feat at 1st and every even level, and a special ability at 1st and every odd level). The Paladin's slipping behind by that much at first made me believe that the non-caster varient is underpowered, but powering up the Paladin would require 28 points of abilities (because the replacements for the spells are worth 8 points). While I believe the paladin's spellcasting is worth more than 4 feats (because that would set a bad precidence, what with the Paladin as a PrC from Unearthed Arcana casting as a 10th level cleric; there's no way a 10th level Cleric's spellcasting is worth only 4 or so feats), it isn't worth 14 feats.

Worse still, if the Paladin's spellcasting is really worth those missing 28 points, then the Ranger is grossly overpowered. The Ranger currently prices in at 221 points, a full 21 points higher than it should be. This comes from the fact that the ranger has high bab, high saves, and high skill points, all numerically intensive abilities that vastly increase the cost of the class. If Paladin spellcasting were to be priced at an additional 20 points, then the ranger would be a full 41 points overpowered!

This might be showing a flaw in the system. I have never seen a Ranger dominate a game like this suggests, but the Ranger does fall victim to one fault: it covers too many bases. Its BAB suggests that it is a full warrior, while it's skill points suggest it is an expert. You can't really have both and remain balanced numerically, even though you can't really do both at the same time. Additionally, the ranger's damage boosting ability (favored enemy) is in the hands of the DM, not the player (a rogue's sneak attack is largely in their own hands; it is up to the player to set them up, even though the DM can kill it with un-critable foes).

Luckily, the ranger's 21 point excess can be fixed by choosing a side: if the ranger is a warrior, drop its skill points back to 4 and reduce its high Reflex save, and it is balanced (while you're at it, trade out Evasion for something else); if the ranger is an expert (which I think it should be), drop it's BAB to 3/4ths and reduce its high Fort save. Reducing its skill points and a save will reduce its point cost by 22 points; reducing its BAB and a save will reduce its point cost by 21 points. Both all but perfectly balance the class, and they wouldn't hurt the ranger as long as the player is okay with sticking to one role.

And since I know at least one person will want to see the numbers, here they are. If there are any questions as to why I priced certain things as I did, I'm more than happy to explain.

 [spoiler]Xeviatâ,¬,,¢s Class Calculator

Function: 1 Feat = 2 points.

Class Features Character Points Evaluation
HD: 0.4 points per hit point
-d4: 20 (1 point per level)
-d6: 28 (1.4 points per level)
-d8: 36 (1.8 points per level)
-d10: 44 (2.2 points per level)
-d12: 52 (2.6 points per level)
SP: 0.4 points per skill point
-2: 16 (0.8 point per level)
-4: 32 (1.6 points per level)
-6: 48 (2.4 points per level)
-8: 64 (3.2 points per level)
BAB: 3 points per attack bonus
-1/2: 30 (1.5 per level)
-3/4: 45 (2.25 per level)
-1/1: 60 (3 per level)
Saves: 1 point per point
-High: 12 (1/2 per point)
-Low: 6 (1/4 per point)

BARBARIAN, d12 HD, 4 SP (9)
Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, Shields, Light, Medium
Alignment: Non-Lawful
HD: d12: 52
SP: 4 (9): 32
BAB: 1/1: 60
Saves: High Fort: 24
Proficiencies: S, M, Sh, L, Med: 10
Fast Movement: 2
Illiteracy: -1
Rage 6/day: 6
Uncanny Dodge: 2
Trap Sense +6: 3
Improved Uncanny Dodge: 2
Greater Rage: 2
Indomitable Will: 2
Tireless Rage: 2
Mighty Rage: 2
Total: 200

FIGHTER, d10 HD, 2 SP (7)
Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, Shields, Tower, Light, Medium, Heavy
HD: d10: 44
SP: 2 (7): 16
BAB: 1/1: 60
Saves: High Fort: 24
Proficiencies: S, M, Sh, T, L, M, H: 14   
Bonus Feat (11) : 22
Total: 180 (-20)

MONK, d8 HD, 4 SP (16, plus knowledge arcane and knowledge religion)
Proficiencies: Simple*
Alignment: Lawful
HD: d8: 36
SP: 4 (16+2) : 32
BAB: 3/4: 45
Saves: All High: 36
Proficiencies: S*: 2
Bonus Feat (3): 6
Flurry of Blows (-0): 4 (2)
Unarmed Strike (2d10): 4
Wis to AC: 2 (1)
Evasion: 2
Still Mind: 2
Speed +60: 6
Ki Strike (Magic): 2 (1)
Slow Fall (Any): 2
Purity of Body: 1
AC +4: 8 (4)
Wholeness of Body: 1
Improved Evasion: 2
Ki Strike (Lawful): 2 (1)
Diamond Body: 2
Greater Flurry: 2 (1)
Abundant Step: 1
Diamond Soul: 4
Quivering Palm: 1
Ki Strike (Adamantine): 2 (1)
Timeless Body: -
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: 1
Empty Body: 1
Perfect Self: 2
Total: 200

PALADIN, d10 HD, 2 SP (8 plus knowledge nobility and knowledge religion)
Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, Shields, Light, Medium, Heavy
Alignment: LG, and code of conduct
HD: d10: 44
SP: 2 (8+1): 16
BAB: 1/1: 60
Saves: High Fort: 24
Proficiencies: S, M, Sh, L, M, H: 12
Code of Conduct: -2
Aura of Good: -1
Detect Evil at will: 2
Smite Evil 5/day: 5
Divine Grace: 2
Lay on Hands: 2
Aura of Courage: 2
Divine Health: 2
Turn Undead (-3): 1
Special Mount: 2
Remove Disease 5/week: 1
Blessed Weapon: 2
Divine Might: 2
Tend to Mount: 2
Holy Sword: 2
Total: 180 (-20)

Blessed Weapon: Any weapon wielded by the paladin is good aligned for overcoming damage reduction.
Divine Might: 1/day, can add +4 to Str, Wis, or Cha for 1 minute/level.
Tend to Mount: Lay on Hands on mount heals 5 hp/1 hp spent, and can cure additional effects.
Holy Sword: Can cast Holy Sword 1/day, at caster level 1/2 level.

RANGER, d8 HD, 6 SP (16, plus knowledge dungeoneering, knowledge geography, knowledge nature)
Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, Shields, Light
HD: d8: 36
SP: 6 (16+3): 48
BAB: 1/1: 60
Saves: High Fort and Ref: 30
Proficiencies: S, M, Sh, L: 8
5 Favored Enemies: 10
Track: 1
Wild Empathy: 2
Combat Style (3): 6
Endurance: 1
Animal Companion 1/2: 1
Fast Movement: 2
Woodland Stride: 2
Swift Tracker: 2
Evasion: 2
Nature's Blessing: 2
Camouflage: 2
Healing Touch: 2
Freedom of Movement: 2
Hide in Plain Sight: 2
Total: 221 (+21)

Nature's Blessing:1/day, gain +4 to Dex, Con, or Wis for 1 minute/level.
Healing Touch: 1/day, can use Neutralize Poison or Remove Disease at caster level 1/2 level.
Freedom of Movement: 1/day on self, caster level 1/2 level.

ROGUE, d6 HD, 8 SP (28, plus knowledge local)
Proficiencies: Simple, Rogue (hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword), Light
HD: d6: 28
SP: 8 (28+1): 64
BAB: 3/4: 45
Saves: High Ref: 24
Proficiencies: S, Rogue, L: 5
Sneak Attack +10d6: 10
Trap Finding: 1
Evasion: 2
Trap Sense +6: 3
Uncanny Dodge: 2
Improved Uncanny Dodge: 2
Special Ability (4): 8
Total: 194
[/spoiler]

Xeviat, while your numbers look ok, and I'm sure we all appreciate the work you put in your calculations, I think there is one inherent flaw to the very basis of your endeavor: that classes are at all creatable with such a system. I highly doubt that WotC or their hired freelancers do in fact use such a mathematical schema to create classes, but instead rely more on "gut feelings" and "play testing" to come out with their classes.

For example, both the warlock and the soulknife look indeed impressive stats-wise with their unlimited spell-like abilities, respecitvely virtually indestructable +9 weapon. However, in actual play both suffer from difficulties that greatly decrease their actual value (such as the warlock's inability to get off more than one attack with his eldritch blast, or the soulknife's moderate BAB + low AC for a frontliner).

Therefore I doubt that it is possible to find a system that allows to create balanced classes by swapping class ability (like replacing a wizard's familiar with a special mount - both value at 2pts according to your lists). I think "Crave" (in the thread I linked in my post above) had the right idea, that there are some inherent dependencies within classes that need to be taken into consideration (like weapon proficiencies being cheaper for someone with full BAB, or turn undead being cheaper - or even only available exclusively - to divine casters, etc.).

PS: I think I found a typo. In your post originally introducing your calculations, you value turn undead at 2 pts, and turn undead (-3 levels) at 3pts. The weaker turning costs more points?

That's a typo; it looks like it happened when I transfered my text from tabbed spacing to colons. It wasn't taken into consideration with the equasions.

While I agree that WotC and their affiliates never used such a system, the fact that, without trying to hard, my calculator prices the majority of the classes at the same 200 points, I think there's some value to it. I'll read over the Uber Generics stuff, but here's my method of thinking:

*You're right; certain abilities should be restricted to certain things. That is why I'm using a feat structure for balance, and feats have prerequisites. If I were to use this to create a classless system, there would be prereqs for most abilities.
*This is made primarily to eyeball balance. I've used it in the past for my own classes. You're right, the Soul Knife comes in reasonably strong when you count its abilities numerically ... my calculator just gave it a 207. The Soul Knife's problem is that its primary ability (the Mind Blade) doesn't synergize with their low BAB. If they were designed to be more of an expert, they could have lower HD to help pay for some other abilities which might make them more useful.
*Their Psychic Strike doesn't synergize with their Psionic Focus; if part of their power didn't rely upon using their psionic focus for special effects (which would cause them to waist every other round to be able to psychic strike and psionic weapon every round, with the cost of Psychic Meditation), they might work better. Their fault is from poor design, not missing points like the Fighter's.
*If you ad-hoc adjust the value of the Soul Knife's abilities to half the price of abilities which can only be used with the Mind Blade, one comes out with 188 points, only a little higher than the fighter. But, I wouldn't do this, because the Soul Knife and their Mind Blade are nigh inseparable. While I did the same for the Monk, enhancing a Monk's unarmed strikes is expensive, so there is reason for them to use other weapons. A Soul Knife should never have to use another weapon; the whole class is designed around that.
*I wouldn't know where to begin testing the Warlock, but I have a feeling that the Warlock balances against the warriors and experts a lot better than the Wizard does.
*I doubt the Soul Knife was extensively playtested. I really doubt that.
*I would never present my class calculator to players and tell them to design a class. Never would I ever.

I use mine primarily to help me gauge what I'm doing when making a class. Everything in the class is thematically linked, and nothing comes out of left field. The fact that the only classes that my system marks as overpowered are overpowered, or are questionably designed, vindicates me; though I'll admit that the Soul Knife is a bad mark. If the Soul Knife could use the GP they saved from not purchasing a weapon to shore up their weaknesses, then I'd have no problem (I saw a 12th level Soul Knife pull out a 30 AC, and his psychic feats made him an excelent skirmisher, with the ability to deal an extra +27 on the occasional attack. He didn't deal the damage that the Warblade charger in the party did, but he also wasn't a glass jaw like said Warblade (who frequently had an AC of 2, and had to be brought back from the brink of death after every fight).

PS: Familiar is a 2 point ability because it is a feat for Bards somewhere, and because the Psicrystal feat is a feat. Leadership can get you a mount that is comparable to a Paladin's mount, so I figure a Paladin's mount is worth a feat.

Ah, thanks for the explaining Xeviat. :) From your previous posts it sounded as if you used it to not only as a tool to confirm your designs, but based your designs on it.

Also, I didn't get the thing with feat prerequisites. Sorry for the confusion. x.

Quote from: XeviatPS: Familiar is a 2 point ability because it is a feat for Bards somewhere, and because the Psicrystal feat is a feat. Leadership can get you a mount that is comparable to a Paladin's mount, so I figure a Paladin's mount is worth a feat.

Complete Arcane, acquire familiar.

Aguably better than the class feature as the feat takes progression based on a combined caster level (base+prestige) instead of just the base. I think.

 

Did sdragon give up on this quest?

Oh, Ra-Tiel, I loosely base my designes off of my engine, but if anything, my homebrew classes have seemed just a little underpar (when compared to the stronger classes that is) than overpar. But you're right in your suspicion; it's mainly used to check something I've completed and make sure it's reasonable.