Something we all should see

Higgs Boson · June 13, 2007, 08:00:05 PM

However, even with that, we still know which row is most likely, due to scientific proof. So, if science almost completely proved that global warming was caused mostly by us, that leaves us with the most likely outcome for column A to be live, but cost; meanwhile column B's most likely would be complete catastrophe. So, with that said, you would choose column A, not B because even it has the least repercussions. And by repercussions, I'm not talking about just the humans. For example, from the book Ishmael, the character begins thinking about what if humans are just the pathrunners for another intellegint species in the process of evolution that would be superiour to us. This means that we are not only gambling with our own species, but with every single species tha tlives on this world, or to come after us. So, if we choose column B, we could be dooming many, many, many species to extinction just because we didn't want to do the work and decided to leave the fate of the world to chance. That's just got "choose this and sooner or later we'll send uber-ninjas at you to assassinate you, and there is nothing you can do to stop them" . Except instead of ninjas its nature. which has better ninjas to kill us with.

Poseptune · June 13, 2007, 08:09:43 PM

See he says you can't choose either row. It will happen (science is correct) or it won't (science is wrong). One of these two events will happen. The choice is the column, should we act or shouldn't we.

(I am not giving my position on the real life subject. I am just considering the video. If you want to talk about real life, please tell me and I will leave.)

Epic Meepo · June 13, 2007, 08:48:07 PM

Wouldn't the worst case scenario from the video actually be the following?

[table= Real Worst Case Scenario]
[tr][td] [/td][th]Action is Taken to Stop Climate Change[/th][th]No Action is Taken to Stop Climate Change[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]There is No Climate Change[/th][td] $ cost; global depression; widespread poverty leads to rampant strip mining that does cause climate change[/td][td] Scientists discover that a stubbornly unchanging climate is the cause of all cancer [/td][/tr]
[tr][th]There is Climate Change[/th][td] $ cost; incorrect action is taken and climate changes anyway; global depression, famine, and war [/td][td] Global depression, famine, war; widespread appearance of "I told you so!" bumper stickers[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Poseptune · June 13, 2007, 08:53:05 PM

OH NOES NOT THE BUMPER STICKERS!!!!! COLUMN A COLUMN A. :P

Elven Doritos · June 13, 2007, 08:55:15 PM

Seriously, people would be putting those bumper stickers on their foreheads, after peak oil catches up with the fairy tale motorist economy.

Higgs Boson · June 13, 2007, 09:04:59 PM

Well, its about the time, looking at the record of ice ages, for the heating to start before the drop, but out carbon dioxide putouts are increasing the heat to twice as it should be. Saying that, if we cut back on emissions, we won't have as much of a porblem. And of course the climate will change on its own, its what the earth does and there is a clear history of it. However, if we screw up enough stuff, then there wont be much of a climate to change. Thusly (new word), we should take action. This will REDUCE and NOT STOP the change, i repeat again: REDUCE and NOT STOP, so we don't kill off species. Changing the climate so it never changes on us because we don't want to cope with change is just plain stupid, and I would hate to be soemone who tried that. Anywho, if my previous posts came off as i want the climate change to stop entirely, that is incorrect. What i meant is that we should take action, but the only thing that we will be ale to do is reduce the effect our emissions are having on the world. For example, (and this is true) if many people (not sure how many) replace all their house lights with flourescent lights it would be like taking 40,000 cars off the road every year. So, if we do what we can (and by can i mean not try and stop climate change in its tracks), then we'll be fine. Sorry if that was confusing, but if i edit my mini-rants i go on, then i will think i meant something than what i originally ment, so i try not to do that as often as i can.

Stargate525 · June 13, 2007, 10:10:00 PM

Quote from: Uranium-238And by repercussions, I'm not talking about just the humans. For example, from the book Ishmael, the character begins thinking about what if humans are just the pathrunners for another intellegint species in the process of evolution that would be superiour to us. This means that we are not only gambling with our own species, but with every single species that lives on this world, or to come after us. So, if we choose column B, we could be dooming many, many, many species to extinction just because we didn't want to do the work and decided to leave the fate of the world to chance.

well if you're going to look into the future, wouldn't a future race that has evolved to master rapid and extreme climate shifts a good thing? How do you know that the species out of the global warming won't be better? By taking action against it, you're still gambling with every single species that lives on this world, or to come after us. No real change.

Quote from: Uranium-238Thusly (new word)

(already a word) ;)

Quote from: Uranium-238For example, (and this is true) if many people (not sure how many) replace all their house lights with flourescent lights it would be like taking 40,000 cars off the road every year.

yes, but that doesn't account for the toxic chemicals needed to be put into the lights, nor the increased cost of producing said lights.

Jump ahead to LCDs; better in almost every conceivable way.

Higgs Boson · June 14, 2007, 12:49:29 AM

Damni! Its a new word if i say it is! But anyways, your thing about a race that has evolved to master climate shifts, etc., etc. But, they would need an ancestor, and what if we wiped out their ancestor while we were not doing anything? What if they were destined to be extremely awesome multiverse rulers...but you see, after we gewt to the races evolved to awesomeness thing it kinda loses its focus as we could go off to conquering multiple universes before ascending to something not unlike the "Q" of Star Trek. Soooo...lets just stick with the earth for now. Although, to be fair, i did bring it up. so, *slaps self vigourously with new AP Biology book*

Túrin · June 14, 2007, 08:50:10 AM

I was a bit surprised he also put a smilie in the column A / row True box. I mean, if $$$ leads to global depression (I doubt action on climate change will get us into global depression but let's put that aside for now) then it will also do so in case climate change is true. This would mean three out of four boxes are bad, one of which is very bad.

So following his boxwise reasoning, we have two options:

- A: We act. Moderately bad results whether climate change is true or false.

- B: We don't act. Good results if climate change is false, VERY bad results if climate change is true.

Obviously, there is no way to decide between the two without in some way applying probabilities to the "true" and "false" scenarios, but unfortunately we're unable to do so. So the argument doesn't lead to anything.

Now my personal opinion is that we should still pick column A, for two reasons:
- I do not believe acting on climate change will necessarily have very bad consequences for anyone (except oil companies perhaps, though probably not even them).
- I do believe climate change will happen.

Túrin

PS props to Ish for pointing out the fallacy in his argument with the Christian thing.

Higgs Boson · June 14, 2007, 10:15:35 AM

I agree with Turin. And, as he said, [blockquote Turin]I do not believe acting on climate change will necessarily have very bad consequences for anyone (except oil companies perhaps, though probably not even them).
[/blockquote] At this point, we need a new fuel source. You will always need a new fuel source if your current fuel is killing the planet you live on. so, at this point, we shouldn't even take in to consideration oil companies.

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