Discussion: Technology and Magic levels

Xathan · June 18, 2007, 05:06:51 PM

This really can shape how we look at nation building, so I decided to make a thread for it.

Here's are options, as I see them.

Magic:
Low: High level casters (10 and up) are extremely rare. Magic items are only the province of the wealthy or the elite. War is primarily fought like it is in modern times, with a high level caster able to reshape the battlefield - but only where he is available to fight, and only in the area he can affect.
Middle: I'll call this the Faerun approach. Magic is commonish, but doesn't have a huge impact on society. Wizards guilds exist, but for the most part, society is much like it was during the middle ages on earth.
High: I'll call this the Eberron approach. Magic is common, and everyone can use it. People ride magical trains, skyships soar the air, and more. Society looks much like modern society does, with magic replacing technology.

Technology:
Low: Middle ages only. Swords, siege weapons, armor, etc all about where they would be. The magic level would determine the prevalence of magically augmented weaponry.
Middle: Guns are available, as are more advanced techniques in weaponry, especially siege weapons. Castles and armor are quickly becoming obsolete, as guns and cannons make them a thing of the past.
High: Steampunk. Trains and plains, zeppelins and steam powered armor all exist. Weapons become deadly, with things like chainswords and rapid firing guns appearing on the battlefield. Castles and heavy armor reemerge as steam provides defenses that can actually work.

Ravenspath · June 18, 2007, 05:10:57 PM

Do we want to differentiate between Divine Casters and Arcane casters for level of magic? I can see a low magic area where arcane spellcasters at 10 or above are rare, but there are more Divine Casters since they are getting their magic from Faith.

And are we talking the world as a whole or by region? I see the region I have planned out fitting into the example above with low tech, maybe a bit of guns, but not much.

Xathan · June 18, 2007, 05:35:01 PM

Quote from: RavenspathDo we want to differentiate between Divine Casters and Arcane casters for level of magic? I can see a low magic area where arcane spellcasters at 10 or above are rare, but there are more Divine Casters since they are getting their magic from Faith.

And are we talking the world as a whole or by region? I see the region I have planned out fitting into the example above with low tech, maybe a bit of guns, but not much.

I think what we should be discussing here is the global max - if everyone else is making a low tech area, and one person has their little steampunk region, it could be really jarring and hurt the overall setting. Areas where it is higher by a small margin (one society that has primitive rockets, like what was seen in ancient China, while no one else does wouldn't be overly out of place.) So, I guess, what we're discussing is the global average. I don't think we should differentiate between arcane and divine for this discussion - that would strike me as an individual choice for a region, not something that should be applied globally. (especially since the average person doesn't really care if the armor that just saved his life what made by a cleric or wizard, unless they live in a strict theocracy.)

Personally, I'm a big fan of high magic and middle technology, but I think high magic should be primarily found in the empire and perhaps a few of the outlying areas that also represent older, more advanced societies or ones that trade and interact heavily with the empire but retain thier independence.

Ravenspath · June 18, 2007, 05:41:07 PM

I agree with all of your statements. I just wanted some clarification. And high magic, mid tech seems perfect to me.

Poseptune · June 18, 2007, 05:43:29 PM

Technology:
I like the low technology (though I would imagine that the Empire has a slightly higher technology level than the rest of the world.). I don't care for guns in fantansy settings. If the guns are one shot per 4 round muskets (I've never looked up the gun mechanics.) that would be fine by me. I have always been a big fan of the romanticized soldier vs soldier facing off against one another. In the 17 and 18 hundreds this type of fighting was still present. A volley of preloaded shots and then the groups would charge each other. I like the low technology and if guns are very rare and almost worthless after the first shot I can live with that.

Magic:
It has been clear since the begining of this project that divine magic would play an integral roll in this setting. So I think a medium magic ;evel would work for this setting. Churches and religions would be the primary source of magic and magic users. Most wizards (more lawful in nature) would be employed and funded by the Empire, while most sorcerers (more chaotic in nature) would be the primary magic user of the rest of the world. (with exceptions of course). Bards would go where the money is. :P Not everyone knows how to use magic in one form or another, but it is a real force in the world.

Xathan · June 18, 2007, 05:53:24 PM

Quote from: PoseidonTechnology:
I like the low technology (though I would imagine that the Empire has a slightly higher technology level than the rest of the world.). I don't care for guns in fantansy settings. If the guns are one shot per 4 round muskets (I've never looked up the gun mechanics.) that would be fine by me. I have always been a big fan of the romanticized soldier vs soldier facing off against one another. In the 17 and 18 hundreds this type of fighting was still present. A volley of preloaded shots and then the groups would charge each other. I like the low technology and if guns are very rare and almost worthless after the first shot I can live with that.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. I've never been a big fan of guns - the individual soldier, armed with sword and shield, locked in mortal combat is much more...interesting to me than gun combat.

And actually, something you said got me thinking. What if guns really were one shot only devices - after being fired, the explosive material rendered them unusable without heavy repairs? That would make them useful to assassins, theives, and specialized military units, but worthless for the average soldier - and it would also make them incredibly impractical for their cost vs their usefulness.

Quote from: PoseidonMagic:
It has been clear since the begining of this project that divine magic would play an integral roll in this setting. So I think a medium magic ;evel would work for this setting. Churches and religions would be the primary source of magic and magic users. Most wizards (more lawful in nature) would be employed and funded by the Empire, while most sorcerers (more chaotic in nature) would be the primary magic user of the rest of the world. (with exceptions of course). Bards would go where the money is. :P Not everyone knows how to use magic in one form or another, but it is a real force in the world.

I'd personally like a higher level of magic by a significant amount, at least within the empire, but that's just because I'm in love with floating buildings, elevators of nothing, flying ships, etc...it would honestly probably reshape CeBeGia too much to be practical at this point in development.

LordVreeg · June 18, 2007, 05:55:08 PM

MMmm. Time for a bit of contrarionism...

First of all

QuoteI think what we should be discussing here is the global max -

this is crucial. Start big, big macro, set standards, and work down.

Tech and Magc are two ways of accomplishing the same type of thing. So generally, if magic is plentiful, thech does not develop. Same thing the other way around. So you get kind of a ratio swing. Either a lo/high or a mid/mid seems the most logical here. Swings of the other sort can happen, nut generally when the two have developed independently, then find each otherafter developement later (another fun storyline)

I am more of a low/mid fan, where there is still some sense of wonder we can wring out of the world. Where the appearance of a wizrd casting a fireball evokes some awe among the populace of a town, not merely the complaint that, "Here they go again. Damn pesky wizards think they own everything'. Same with Tech.

Stargate525 · June 19, 2007, 01:56:24 AM

Quote from: LordVreegMMmm. Time for a bit of contrarionism...

First of all
QuoteI think what we should be discussing here is the global max -
this is crucial. Start big, big macro, set standards, and work down.

Tech and Magc are two ways of accomplishing the same type of thing. So generally, if magic is plentiful, thech does not develop. Same thing the other way around. So you get kind of a ratio swing. Either a lo/high or a mid/mid seems the most logical here. Swings of the other sort can happen, nut generally when the two have developed independently, then find each otherafter developement later (another fun storyline)

I am more of a low/mid fan, where there is still some sense of wonder we can wring out of the world. Where the appearance of a wizrd casting a fireball evokes some awe among the populace of a town, not merely the complaint that, "Here they go again. Damn pesky wizards think they own everything'. Same with Tech.

It's interesting. Here you're describing a sort of destructive interference, where one makes the other small, or both can be average, where here...

Quote from: LordVreeg (quoted from different thread)or, you could have tecno wiards, who offer a third alternative. They know about gears and cube/root law, but circumvent and augment them with spells that reduce friction, play with mass, and use weak elementals for steam power. Hell, they could be their own small guild, creating spells that increase the mass of arrows AFTER they are shot, or using air elementals to quadruple the range of ballistae.
Always fun to have a smaller army using this improve their odds in the battlefield. There's a love of da Vinci in most of us.

You're showing a constructive interference, where magic is used to augment technology, and vice versa.

I think it would be interesting to see a dichotomy between these two philosophies within the setting. Perhaps the empire has learned the art of augmenting the load-reducing power of simple machines, but uses grease spells and similar to increase efficiency, while the outer provinces have embraced either magic or technology, but not both.

Either way, my vote is no gunpower/nitroglycerin/big boom powder. It makes things far too easy as far as weapons and technology is concerned. I prefer steam, but only as a rickety and dangerous new technology. Since technology usually includes sciences, I would have to vote medium to high, but I would love to see a full-on fantasy setting that simply knows quite a bit about the laws of physics, and how to harness them to their greatest use.

beejazz · June 19, 2007, 02:05:09 AM

My vote is for high/high. And the idea that the development of one percludes the other doesn't appeal to me. If a small subset of people are magically gifted, wouldn't everyone else do all in their power to keeep up?

Also, lets think of ways to really take both and make them our own. Magic doesn't have to exist only as a tool for human beings. It could have everything to do with strange places and mosters and curses and such. Or technology doesn't just mean weapons and transport, but could be wierd biografts or somesuch.

I should add that I have odd views on weapons. I think that...

...Fantasy needs more guns.
...Scifi needs more swords.
...No game should present an option they've intentionally shafted! Ten-round load times suck ass. Same for swords that deal puny damage in scifi. If you're going to present them, make them rock as hard as everything else. If you want to make them "not everyone's thing" do so by making fighters invest a little (feats, etc) in their chosen field in order to shine. Most people will suck at guns. But people who spend a feat or two should get something for it. Just have guns deal reasonable damage (not like... 3d4 or something) and not take a forever to load. Preferably loading every few rounds. Then I'll be happy.

limetom · June 19, 2007, 03:30:00 AM

I'll go with the Buddha on this one and take the Middle Path: middling Magic, middling tech. This should give everybody something to love.

Personally, from what I understand about the current consensus on religion, I think that divine magic, arcane magic, and psionics should be separate, and going from most common to least common, they should be divine magic (due to the emphasis on faith), arcane magic, and psionics (due to me liking them relatively rare.)

While I never have used guns in my own settings, I have no qualms if they are voted into use here. Renaissance level tech for CeBeGia is fine by me.

Túrin · June 19, 2007, 06:33:02 AM

I think we should look at the core ethos first, to have some guideline other than the personal preference of whoever happens to post in this thread (no offense to you guys).

In particular, the layout of the continent (big empire and city-states, nation-states have yet to be invented) and the rather primitive state of religion seems to indicate that the level of development isn't particularly high. Up until now, we seem to have used historical sources primarily from the 500 BC - 500 AD era, rather than much later eras.

To me, low tech seems like the obvious choice (which also keeps us within comfortable D&D 3.5 limits) while magic can be either low or medium (any level where it doesn't have a major effect on society as a whole).

Túrin

Poseptune · June 19, 2007, 08:02:55 AM

This can't be right. Turin and I on the same end of the spectrum. Something must be wrong. :P

I agree with Turin. Many of the threads (even before I joined this project) seem to be written with the assumption of low technology.

Magic has been up in the air and not talked about, but the religions were a main part of the discussion. Low/medium lends itself well to what has been presented before. Or perhaps a low-medium for the Empire (where wizards and other spell casters enjoy the peaceful life under the protection of the Empire, they are able to research and exmperiment more.). The rest of the world can have low to high-low magic level.

High magic with elevators, floating buildings, airships, and other things found in Eberron, creep the technology level to medium or high. They are science created (of course a wizard may say magic IS a science :P ) technology, but magically augmented technology. So if we want low technology, magic can be high level.

Stargate525 · June 19, 2007, 10:31:20 AM

there has to be some sort of relatively high technology in the empire, as the fact that they have a flagship that rival modern cruise liners in size has been pretty well cemented.

LordVreeg · June 19, 2007, 10:33:39 AM

I also throw in with the aknowledgement that ther threads have inferred a developmental level more consistent with low/low, or mayeb a low mid combination. While we got onto magic late, the other threads that tie to it (cultural. organizational and educational developmental indicators all point a more basic formatting of tech and magic.

Also, never forget, that metagiming-wise, finding something wonderful and new (or wonderful and old that seems new) is easier when the world are grounded in a less advanced setting.

Poseptune · June 19, 2007, 10:55:32 AM

Quote from: Stargate525there has to be some sort of relatively high technology in the empire, as the fact that they have a flagship that rival modern cruise liners in size has been pretty well cemented.

It hasn't been cemented in place yet. It is still being discussed and has not been finalized yet. I gave finished the dimensions and method propulsion to what was MittenNinja's idea in hopes to get more discussion on the matter. It seems that the discussion on it has died down and has been replaced by a discussion on langauge. Even when there was discussion about it it was only about 3-4 members. I still don't care for the ship being the size of a town, but a ship about twice the size of normal sailing ships would be more feasible.

Hopefully I will get time to summarize all the ideas floating around in the Empire thread soon.

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Discussion: Technology and Magic levels

Xathan

Ravenspath

Xathan

Ravenspath

Poseptune

Xathan

LordVreeg

Stargate525

beejazz

limetom

Túrin

Poseptune

Stargate525

LordVreeg

Poseptune