The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Stargate525It's interesting. I think we might want to separate our technology category; what would we call a setting with Renaissance architecture, but no gunpower or steam?

Not Renaissance, Roman/Egyptian. Rome had aqueducts, roads, coliseum, theaters, etc... and Egyptians built pyramids, irrigation, etc... and this was centuries before the Renaissance. So we really don't need steam power or gun powder.

Quote from: Kap'n XeviatBut, it might be fun to push the limits a little, and have floating castles and public transportation and common priests and magi.

floating castle....eh

public transportation: easily done by mundane means. Large carriage as a bus, but would the evil-ish empire offer such a luxury to its people? Only citizens?

common priest: since religion is a big part of the setting I would think priest would be common.

common magi: I would imagine that they are fairly common, not as common as priests.

Rome had better aqueducts than any city system until, and probably inxcluding, the renaissance. The Claoca Maxima of Roma Noblis is still there.
I do think our lawful Empire might find it wasteful to waste spells on the common trasnportation, though we might find giant-animal drawn person-wagons moving troops or workers.

I can easily see our new Empire, trying to emulate Big Al's success, trying to do too much at one time, financing huge building projects at the same time as trying to re-conquer territory.

Yeah. I could see the current Empire, perhaps the son of 'Nero Alcander' (the refounder), being somewhat alike to the real Nero - turning the Empire (Alcandria, or whatever we call it) into a complete mess financially for the sake of rebuilding it as a cultural capital.

OK.   That is a good twist.

I se big slavery here, in the Empire, as we get more roman-esque.  Expansion feeds growth and need for new slaves.

Saint worship condones this, I would say.  BAsed on Saint worship, we can say that older families with old imerial ties (espefcially those with saints in their family tree) are a litle 'closer-to-god', citizens born in the empire are still tied to the saints, 1st generation citizens are pretty low on the totem pole (Genus Minimus), but those outside the Empire are seen as the great unwashed by the church.
Readymade class warfare, here we come!

that had nothing to do with Magic or Tech.  This does.

What mechanism are we going to create for teaching magic to people.  Who holds the knowledge.  Wierd old creepy guys in towers that dot the land?  A huge, multinational conspiracy, like my own Collegium Arcana?  Small competing guilds with specialties (The Terror of Fire Guild, The Artificarium of Viccol, the Stel Library)?
Thoughts?

Who holds the secrets of arcane magic? A bunch of dead guys. And their books. The old empire knew more than the new, and anyone who wants to get crazy powerful in the arcane sciences has to dig in some dark, wet, dangerous places.

Quote from: From another cebegia threadArcane magic comes from the energy of the world. A wizard uses calculated formulas to manipulate the energy in the environment. Sorcerers and bards to some extent are more in tune with the world and can feel this energy. They simply will the energy to form into spells

Empire would probably arcane users would have formal training. Slaves would have to be sorcerers at best (unless they came from a nation that had formal training). The rest of the world would probably have more sorcerers than wizards (gives it more of a barbaric feel).

How Arcane magic was learned in each individual nation would be up to the designer, but the most logical answer would have been the Old Empire wizards teaching people to use it. Some may have traveled after the Empire crumbled...

As far as how you learn it? I've always been partial to the master/apprentice idea. You can't be called a true [caster class here] unless you've taken an apprentice (level 6 leadership here we come!)

[blockquote-beejazz] Posted:  Thu Jun 21 2007, 01:25PM
Who holds the secrets of arcane magic? A bunch of dead guys. And their books. The old empire knew more than the new, and anyone who wants to get crazy powerful in the arcane sciences has to dig in some dark, wet, dangerous places.[/blockquote]
Good way to look at it.  The Pre-Empire mages can be the stuff of legend, while the Mages of Big AL's Cantina are still envied...

Old Empire wizards might have travelled all over the place, and picked up some apprentices...Sounds dcent and workable.
How many casters of what level does this give you in a large town of 10k people?

This is a nice opportunity to play up the arcane-divine dichotomy.

While divine magic (through the Saint-worshipers) is closely tied to the secular powers in the Empire, arcane magic can be a bit more free spirited. The master-apprentice structure lends itself ideally for this approach. Wizards would be more interested in knowledge and less in power (compared to Saint-worshiping clerics), they would travel around freely, showing up and disappearing without notice (think Gandalf rather than Saruman). They would pick up apprentices at their leisure. Having a competent apprentice would be a point of pride. Anyone with the talent might be taken away by a wandering wizard, regardless of social class. Clerics, on the other hand, would be taken only from the upper class, and significant tuitions would have to be paid by their family for their education, while wizards wouldn't bother with tuitions, teaching apprentices only for the inherent joy of teaching and the honour a successful apprentice yields among other wizards.

Sorcerers would likewise come from any layer of society, but without the master-apprentice structure. They would just start developing their talent at some point during puberty and they either get themselves killed or learn to control it to some degree. They would be loners, and because of the dangerous side effects of learning to control it (through trial and error, probably) are likely to be persecuted and/or mistrusted (not everyone would be aware that older sorcerers do have control over what they do).

Bards could be what happens when someone with the sorcerer talent receives some training. There might be a guild(?) that takes in those with the sorcerer talent from the higher classes of society. Because sorcerers are distrusted on the whole, their talent is suppressed in part (hence the lesser raw magic power of the bard) and only non-destructive magic is learned. These trained bards form the elite in the area of amusement, performing mostly for the upper class.

I'll leave it at that, for now. Thoughts?

Túrin

Quote from: TúrinThis is a nice opportunity to play up the arcane-divine dichotomy.

While divine magic (through the Saint-worshipers) is closely tied to the secular powers in the Empire, arcane magic can be a bit more free spirited. The master-apprentice structure lends itself ideally for this approach. Wizards would be more interested in knowledge and less in power (compared to Saint-worshiping clerics), they would travel around freely, showing up and disappearing without notice (think Gandalf rather than Saruman). They would pick up apprentices at their leisure. Having a competent apprentice would be a point of pride. Anyone with the talent might be taken away by a wandering wizard, regardless of social class. Clerics, on the other hand, would be taken only from the upper class, and significant tuitions would have to be paid by their family for their education, while wizards wouldn't bother with tuitions, teaching apprentices only for the inherent joy of teaching and the honour a successful apprentice yields among other wizards.

I like this. It makes the wizards more approachable, and the fact that you've essentially switched the roles of the wizard and cleric in the commoner's eyes makes it even better.

Quote from: TúrinSorcerers would likewise come from any layer of society, but without the master-apprentice structure. They would just start developing their talent at some point during puberty and they either get themselves killed or learn to control it to some degree. They would be loners, and because of the dangerous side effects of learning to control it (through trial and error, probably) are likely to be persecuted and/or mistrusted (not everyone would be aware that older sorcerers do have control over what they do).

I don't know about this. As much I as I like how you've got wizards, and I don't want their toes stepped on, it would seem to me that a sorceror is in greater need of a master-apprentice style learning, since it's either learn or blow yourself up. Perhaps full sorcerors are more reclusive, similar to standard viewing of wizards, but wizards consider it a point of pride to train a sorceror... That sounds stupid. Forget that. Although I still think that sorcerors need some sort of recourse, otherwise their numbers would be ridiculously slim.

Quote from: TúrinBards could be what happens when someone with the sorcerer talent receives some training. There might be a guild(?) that takes in those with the sorcerer talent from the higher classes of society. Because sorcerers are distrusted on the whole, their talent is suppressed in part (hence the lesser raw magic power of the bard) and only non-destructive magic is learned. These trained bards form the elite in the area of amusement, performing mostly for the upper class.

I don't like tying the Bard to the sorceror like that. In a way it makes sense, but I don't see it really working. Besides, do bards really need an excuse?

other thoughts. Perhaps the wizards are regarded similarly to jedi, in that they will help out and such, and take apprentices from the populace. I imagine that we could play up the relationship between the master and the apprentice quite a bit; maybe wizards trace their lineage by knowledge rather than genetics. Gandalf student of Hirgan, who was taught by the Blue Mage Trellendi, etc.

Quote from: the COMFY CHAIRI don't know about this. As much I as I like how you've got wizards, and I don't want their toes stepped on, it would seem to me that a sorceror is in greater need of a master-apprentice style learning, since it's either learn or blow yourself up. Perhaps full sorcerors are more reclusive, similar to standard viewing of wizards, but wizards consider it a point of pride to train a sorceror... That sounds stupid. Forget that. Although I still think that sorcerors need some sort of recourse, otherwise their numbers would be ridiculously slim.

So either we have to accept that there will be a very low number of sorcerers (perhaps it's not really that hard to control the talent if you have it, so a reasonable number can figure it out on their own) or we have to give sorcerers some kind of master-apprentice structure as well. Assuming we want to avoid wizards and sorcerers being completely indistinguishable we will have to think of some other difference. Perhaps sorcerers are more untamed/intuitive/chaotic making them more common outside the Empire, while wizards are more regularly seen within the Empire? If we take such a route, we may want to avoid making the wizard Empire-only and the sorcerer region-only, because of limiting player options.

Quote from: the COMFY CHAIRI don't like tying the Bard to the sorceror like that. In a way it makes sense, but I don't see it really working. Besides, do bards really need an excuse?

I was just thinking that sorcerers and bards have a similar talent. If the sorcerer talent is considered highly dangerous, we would need something to separate the two. Hence my ideas in the above post. I suppose an explanation of this kind is not strictly necessary though.

Quote from: the COMFY CHAIRother thoughts. Perhaps the wizards are regarded similarly to jedi, in that they will help out and such, and take apprentices from the populace. I imagine that we could play up the relationship between the master and the apprentice quite a bit; maybe wizards trace their lineage by knowledge rather than genetics. Gandalf student of Hirgan, who was taught by the Blue Mage Trellendi, etc.

I like that a lot. Wizards would take great pride in their lineage, especially if it has a good reputation. A wizard might have a much higher rank among wizards even before having proven himself if he came from a lineage of accomplished wizards with good reputations (where lineage means not their family but the line of their master and their master's master, etc.).

You know how horses are considered full-blooded (not sure about the proper term in English) if they can trace their lineage to one of four specific horses in the 19th century or so? Wizards could perhaps treat other wizards fully only if they could show a complete listing of their lineage back to a specific set of "original wizards" (presumably from the old Empire).

Now this is probably the point where I take this idea too far, but this might even be the difference between a wizard (lineage back to the old Empire) and a sorcerer ('rogue' lineage).

Túrin

Quote from: TúrinYou know how horses are considered full-blooded (not sure about the proper term in English) if they can trace their lineage to one of four specific horses in the 19th century or so? Wizards could perhaps treat other wizards fully only if they could show a complete listing of their lineage back to a specific set of "original wizards" (presumably from the old Empire).

I like that idea quite a bit.

I have to jump into the camp of making the arcane casters more of a free-spritied, bohemian crew, in contrast to the Divine casters in the Saint worshipers.  

Also
[blockquote=mormegil]Bards could be what happens when someone with the sorcerer talent receives some training. There might be a guild(?) that takes in those with the sorcerer talent from the higher classes of society. Because sorcerers are distrusted on the whole, their talent is suppressed in part (hence the lesser raw magic power of the bard) and only non-destructive magic is learned. These trained bards form the elite in the area of amusement, performing mostly for the upper class.[/blockquote]

There is somewhere we can go with this, I think Turin is onto something.  it could be that that is how the Bardic magic started, that more cultured, higher-class talented children were not sent to dirty towers with creepy old men...they were sent to finishing school (or so to speak), and learned dancing, entertaining, the great songs and histories, the ways of the courts, and a little magic.
The times have changed, and the Bardic guilds have become more independent, fostering secret knowledge and alliances with some Old Families, but perhaps also the keepers of some Old Empire secrets entrusted to them, known only by their masters.  And now, thety still take in aristocats for tutoring, while also testing the less fortunate for talent.  The laughing fce of the Troubadours of the Old Families and the Rich on the outside, while desperately trying to maintain their independance in secret.

Just an idea, but I think I got myself interested... if nobody else...