Variant skill system based on usage

Pellanor · August 14, 2007, 04:53:30 PM

I randomly came up with this in the shower last night, so very little thought has actually been put into it.

The basic idea is to create a skill system where you are better at skills that you use more often, but also gives you the opportunity to advance skills that you haven't had a chance to use, all the while minimizing bookkeeping.

It's basically on the standard d20 skill system, with the following modifications
- All ranks only cost one skill point to buy.
- All skills have a base max ranks equal to 1/2 character level + 1.5, rounded down.
- Every level that use a skill, the max ranks for that skill is raised by one, to a max of character level +3.
- Every level you may increase the your max ranks by an amount equal to your int mod. You can increase a few different skills by a smaller amount, or a single skill by a large amount. You must increase your ranks in that skill by an equal amount.
For example, Bob the Rogue with a 17 int(+3) never got a chance to use Move Silently or Disable Device this level, but he wants to keep his skill ranks for those two skills high. He can increase his max ranks in either skill by 1, though to do so he would have to put on of his skill points for tha tlevel into each of his two skills. However Bob didn't use Disable Device last level either, so it's even further back. He's going to boost Disable Device by two and Move Silently by one.

Thoughts?

Epic Meepo · August 14, 2007, 05:41:15 PM

That's a good way to make d20 more realistic in a game where PC's have no down time. In a game where PC's get down time, though, you can say that PC's are practicing skills between adventures, even skills that they didn't use during the adventures. This generally makes for less bookkeeping.

Seraph · August 14, 2007, 07:38:05 PM

I have to say I am confused on how your system works. All I could really discern was what I could get from your title: that improving skills is based on usage. I like that concept, I just don't understand quite how it works in your system.
I have also thought about this concept and was going to simply say that characters had to at least have ATTEMPTED a skill the previous level to add ranks to it when they level up. Unless the rogue makes a hide check at some point in their 5th level, they cannot take ranks in it upon levelling up to 6th level. Success or failure is irrelevant because we still learn from our mistakes.

If starting a skill that they have not previously had ranks in, they must have tried to use it untrained. Skills that cannot be used untrained must be acquired by special means. For example, a character without Knowledge (The Planes) cannot in the middle of an adventure start learning to use the skill Knowledge (The Planes) unless they can be taught by someone else, learn from a book, or are in fact adventuring on another plane of existence.

Ra-Tiel · August 15, 2007, 08:29:44 AM

Perhaps you could use a variation of the free german rpg system "LIQUID".

Basically it could work like this:
* each skill starts at 0 ranks
* at character creation you assign a number of certain categories to skills (eg master, expert, layman); for the standard DnD skills I think 5 master and 7 expert skills would be ok
* master skills are where your character really shines, and skills he can improve quickly and with ease
* expert skills are where your character has above average talent, and skills he can improve more easily than the rest
* layman skills are all other skills, and your character is as proficient with them as all others
* next to each skill you have a number of "boxes"
* each time you make a skill check with a skill and beat the DC by 5 or more, you mark off one box next to the skill
* after marking a certain number of boxes (5 for master skills, 10 for expert skills, 20 for layman skills), you get to make an "improvement roll"
* for an improvement roll, you roll 1d20; if you get a result higher than the current number of ranks you have in that skill, you gain one rank

Pellanor · August 15, 2007, 12:02:36 PM

Seraphine, I'll try to explain again.

Basically I'm trying to make it so that your max ranks in a skill only goes up when used. Ranks are still bought as normal, but for skills that you haven't used you're limited to 1/2 level.
So any character can be mediocre at any skill, but you can only master a skill that you have often used.

Make any more sense?

Ra-Tiel, that sounds like an interesting system, though I'm not quite sure if I like it. As Seraphine said, you can learn from your mistakes, but this system only allows you to improve when you succeed at a skill by a significant margin. In addition I don't like the idea of having the skills you're better at being a choice you can only make at first level. Finally I would prefer to limit ranks n a skill based on level, otherwise I could easily see a character who's a master of "Spot" having 15 ranks by 5th level.

On a side note, cause I like math, here's a quick table for how many times you would have to succeed at using a skill to get to 20 ranks.
Master: 360
Expert: 720
Layman: 1439

Actually looking at those numbers now you couldn't have 15 ranks at level 5. I doubt most people would have that many ranks by level 20 for a lot of skills.

Here's the full table.
[spoiler=Master]Master (Current Rank, uses to next, total uses to next)
0 5 5
1 5 10
2 6 16
3 6 22
4 6 28
5 7 35
6 7 42
7 8 49
8 8 58
9 9 67
10 10 77
11 11 88
12 13 100
13 14 115
14 17 131
15 20 151
16 25 176
17 33 210
18 50 260
19 100 360[/spoiler][spoiler=Expert]Expert (Current Rank, uses to next, total uses to next)
0 10 10
1 11 21
2 11 32
3 12 43
4 13 56
5 13 69
6 14 84
7 15 99
8 17 116
9 18 134
10 20 154
11 22 176
12 25 201
13 29 230
14 33 263
15 40 303
16 50 353
17 67 420
18 100 520
19 200 720[/spoiler][spoiler=Layman]Layman (Current Rank, uses to next, total uses to next)
0 20 20
1 21 41
2 22 63
3 24 87
4 25 112
5 27 138
6 29 167
7 31 198
8 33 231
9 36 268
10 40 308
11 44 352
12 50 402
13 57 459
14 67 526
15 80 606
16 100 706
17 133 839
18 200 1039
19 400 1439[/spoiler]

LordVreeg · August 15, 2007, 12:29:16 PM

I always applaud this particular rationale. I even have HP as a skill, so characters that don't fight don't get more HP. And thieves don't get better at picking locks by killing.

[blockquote-Epic Meepo]That's a good way to make d20 more realistic in a game where PC's have no down time. In a game where PC's get down time, though, you can say that PC's are practicing skills between adventures, even skills that they didn't use during the adventures. This generally makes for less bookkeeping.[/blockquote]
This is true. And for many games and gamers, streamlining everything makes for a more enjoyable game.

From my players standpoint, it changes how they play, in that they spend time and effort in town building relationships and alliances with factions that teach skills they want, and they spend money on the 'kits' (books and such) to improve in skills. The downtime in town is spent learning specific skills. They also know that they don't improve in anything they don't use, so they work hard using their skills.

From the GM/storytelling side, this allows characters to evolve based on their actions, instead of a linear growth path based on their 'class'. No character looks anything like any other character if Pellanor creates a flexible system where the use of a skill determines the growth in it.

Seraph · August 15, 2007, 12:41:55 PM

I think I understand now.

QuoteAll ranks only cost one skill point to buy.

Translation: No cross-class skills. Any character has the opportunity to learn any skill without penalty.

Quote- All skills have a base max ranks equal to 1/2 character level + 1.5, rounded down.
- Every level that use a skill, the max ranks for that skill is raised by one, to a max of character level +3.

Translation: Only skills you actually use get full ranks. If you don't use it, you lose it. ;)
So if you didn't use a skill this level you have to put points into it to avoid LOSING points? So it's basically if you stop using the skill you get rusty and aren't as good.

Quote- Every level you may increase the your max ranks by an amount equal to your int mod. You can increase a few different skills by a smaller amount, or a single skill by a large amount. You must increase your ranks in that skill by an equal amount.

This is where I'm still a bit confused. Equal to what? your intelligence modifier? the other skills? Also, it sounds as if all characters receive a universal ranks per level equal to their intelligence modifier. Is this so?

Ra-Tiel · August 15, 2007, 02:26:01 PM

Quote from: Pellanor[...] Ra-Tiel, that sounds like an interesting system, though I'm not quite sure if I like it. As Seraphine said, you can learn from your mistakes, but this system only allows you to improve when you succeed at a skill by a significant margin.

Well, simulating a "learning from mistakes" situation is hard with a strict mechanical system like the rules of a rpg. I seriously wouldn't know how to implement such a rule without opening some backdoor where people attack a tree again and again, and get better from hitting AND from missing. Kinda like the "infinite chicken-XP farm" in AD&D. :D

Quote from: PellanorIn addition I don't like the idea of having the skills you're better at being a choice you can only make at first level.

That was an idea to make a mechanical difference between characters. Think of it as "talents". Some people just have a knack for a certain skill or task, and other people - even with the same manual dexterity or intelligence - will never be equal to those.

Quote from: PellanorFinally I would prefer to limit ranks n a skill based on level, otherwise I could easily see a character who's a master of "Spot" having 15 ranks by 5th level.

But what would be the point of a "learning by doing" system if you were again restricted by your level?

Quote from: PellanorOn a side note, cause I like math, here's a quick table for how many times you would have to succeed at using a skill to get to 20 ranks.
Master: 360
Expert: 720
Layman: 1439

Are you sure? Perhaps I'm a little tired already, but I think you've forgotten that a full marked 5/10/20 boxes do not automatically get you a new rank, but you only gain a new rank if you roll higher than your current ranks on a d20 roll. :?:

Quote from: PellanorActually looking at those numbers now you couldn't have 15 ranks at level 5. I doubt most people would have that many ranks by level 20 for a lot of skills.[...]

But would that be that bad? In my opinion, it would be a good idea to put the breaks into DnD a little, reducing DCs and other numbers, making things a little more "groundstanding" again. ;)

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Variant skill system based on usage

Pellanor

Epic Meepo

Seraph

Ra-Tiel

Pellanor

LordVreeg

Seraph

Ra-Tiel