Convergence Meta-Thread

SA · April 09, 2006, 01:35:17 AM

Yay, I hold the powarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

It feels really good. Aggrandising, even.

Nhalassad
To keep it simple, I think Nhalassad is simply too cohesive, and the stalwart adherence of almost all citizens to Izud's precepts is a prime factor in this. With religion defining the lives of the people, the integrity of the church, by its very presence, strengthens the integrity of Nhalassad itself. To alleviate this, you might consider having disputes within the faith. In the same way that proponents of Islam might war over interpretations of the precepts, or debate which tenets to observe above the others, so too might the Nhalassad clerics bicker and feud over the edicts of Izud.

Of course, your reference to provincial wars goes a long way to alleviating this, and by further emphasising these tensions Nhalassad will be a great deal more workable. A suggestion you might consider:
[spoiler]"Nhalassad was originally a smaller nation, albeit a powerful one, and its borders were surrounded by other human nations (the Outward Lands), who would not swear fealty to the Church. Initially, Nhalassad could not conquer these lands, but with the Convergence, and the appearance of the murderous duergar, the kings of the Outward Lands allied themselves with the Emperor. The Outward Kings, who revered deities of their own, fought tooth and nail through political maneuvering and proselytising to keep their people followers of the old gods, rather than adopting the false god of their usurpers.

Over the centuries, the brutality of the duergar has brought the Outward Lands closer to the will of Izud, but even now the Old Gods are not forgotten. To destroy their faiths would be a foolish gambit, for it is only by allowing the people their own worship that Nhalassad is tolerated by the Outward Kings. Of course, the Church would never permit these heretical faiths to reach Dol'dolra; there is only the word of Izud, and as soon as they may be eliminated without enraging the populace, the kings will surely be disposed of. But that may be a long while yet."

Think about that idea. If you like it, use it, or play around with it until it suits you. Also, I could give you a hand with constructing the other faiths if you do indeed choose to use them.[/spoiler]

Nations in General
The way I see it, Calleith is really the only nation that needs to be cohesive and unified. The duergar ar naturally antisocial and violent, so they won't have trouble shedding anyone's blood, even their own kind. Maenads might not be inherently inclined towards conlfict between their own nations, but I'm sure they can find some reason for intra-racial conflict. The xeph seem rather amiable, but their vigilantism could inspire untold numbers of conflicts regardless. Haven't checked out the dromites yet, admittedly, so I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Magic
Not much I can say concerning magic. As I have said before, mechanics are not my thing. Meepo would be more help than I.

Psionics
Alas, if Convergence is to be preserved in its current form, I doubt the "love across time and space" idea can be implemented, but if you want we can always schtick it in another setting. Basically, here's what I sent to Meepo concerning Psionics:
[spoiler]"As an example of my own idea of psionics, I refer to my Dystopia setting. The "arcane" forces therein were referred to as magic because that is something people would be most receptive to, but ultimately it could not be called magic or psionics. Later, I did indeed wish to convey it as psionics, but calling it psionics would again result in the "alien and unusual" treatment. So now I must search for alternatives to "psionics" and "psion" (as names, not as concepts), so that people will continue to take Dystopia seriously.

Within Dystopia, psionics is obviously not a foreign force. Magic died out hundreds of millennia ago (something I have not yet alluded to in the setting), and psionic power has become the chief driving force of in the world. Originally, the two forces were two different expressions of the same power: magic was a stricter, codified force, while psionics was more basic, primal and innate. There is no need to make that clear currently, as magic is irrelavent to the setting, but when I get in-depth historically, it will be clarified."[/spoiler]

Any other questions, lads?

Soup Nazi · April 09, 2006, 03:56:20 AM

I can easily make Nhalassad less cohesive, and have no problem with your suggestions about other religions surviving in the outlands (along with the other cultures I alluded to). I have been unable to write about these places, because they are mixed with other races, and peoples about which I know nothing else.

The empire is not united in spirit outside of Dol'dolra...that's the whole schtick. The empire used to be united, but since the convergence, it has been slowly falling apart. The loyal imperial citizens have been leaving the outlands to live in the Dol'dolra (which is why it has become the magalopolis it is), while the people more loyal to their own cultures remain in their "homes" back in the outlands. The people of the outlands feel abandoned by the empire, and the empire wonders why these same people won't move closer to Dol'dolra where it is safer.

I still cannot realistically write about these so-called outlands however, until I know what kind of races live among the humans, and what kind of impact they might have upon the local customs. 1000 years is a very long time. If races like the Xeph, Dromites, Duergar, and so on have been known about for most of this time, and living among them for even half of it...what I write hinges greatly upon who they are, how they act, and what their goals are.

As you may or may not recall, I had mentioned this before. If Nhalassad is going to be the geographical and political hub of the setting, then the areas along the border will depend heavily upon the other nations that border it. Nations that unfortunately nobody else has written about, except for Calleith...I guess I'll write about the eastern desert and the humans who live there on the fringes of the elan lands...it will at least give you guys an idea of how I wanted to compose this. I can't really imagine much conflict in a sparsely populated land sandwitched between the empire and their strongest ally, but I can fabriacte something...probably man vs. nature, and superstitious native people who know something is amiss with the elan. It could also be a good hiding place for your dark elan/reaver/things.

-Nasty-

EDIT: I really like the Dystopia treatment of psionics, but it doesn't fit our magic fading/psionics replacing it theme...in dystopia that already happened "hundreds of millennia ago."

SA · April 09, 2006, 04:20:09 AM

That's cool. I can do a write-up of the Duergar if you guys like.

Soup Nazi · April 09, 2006, 05:12:31 AM

Quote from: Salacious AngelThat's cool. I can do a write-up of the Duergar if you guys like.

Sure, I want to throw in some input here and there though. I too am interested in them. I really want the duergar to be a powerful people with a big impact (like the main bad guys of the setting). I've been wondering what kind of miltary they could have, and if slave armies are a possibility...maybe led by thrallherders...

-Nasty-

SA · April 09, 2006, 11:48:45 PM

Well, if you've got ideas for the duergar, just send them my way and we'll see what we can come up with.

Soup Nazi · April 10, 2006, 06:49:58 AM

My duergar ideas consist of a clan-like structure of warrior kings each trying to subvert and conspire against one another, for the ultimate control of the duergar territories.

They place great importance upon psicrystal, and it is pivitol to their technology and culture. Their weapons, constructs, and mining euipment are all heavily augmented with psionic power, and the psycrystal serves as a battery or enhancer that keeps them working.

The duergar ritually sacrifice and eat their defeated foes. Primarily they consume champions, leaders, and powerful antagonists, but they enslave the commoners, soldiers, and masses to work within their mines.

Their greatest generals are psionic thrallherders who lead brainwashed minions (mostly drawn from the ranks of their defeated foes) into battle. This forces their enemies to kill their own kind to defeat the duergar. Their champions are psychic warriors, who use expansion to over-power smaller enemies.

The maenads are escaped slaves who hate the duergar above all else. While most live in tribal units with no lands of their own, others have joined with the humans of the outlands to battle against the encroaching duergar armies. They feel a kinship with the humans of the outlands, who have finally begun to break away from the shackles of the Nhalassad empire.

I can see a great deal of internal back-biting, and skirmishing among the duergar, who believe in old precepts like "might makes right," and "only the strongest survive." It is perhaps only a matter of time before one of their kings subjugates the others, and the duergar unite, which could be devestating to Nhalassad.

Nhalassad and Calleith are united against the duergar, but perfectly willing to sacrifice insurgent provinces within the outlands to satiate the bloodthirsty dwarves. The empire maintains a small imperial force in these sacrifical lands, but it's mostly for show...they really don't care what happens to the provinces, so long as the duergar advance is slowed down. Think of Russia during WWII, and their tactics for defeating Germany.

That's about the gist of what I was thinking. How's it sound?

-Nasty-

Epic Meepo · April 10, 2006, 02:49:57 PM

Quote from: Salacious AngelNhalassad was originally a smaller nation, albeit a powerful one, and its borders were surrounded by other human nations (the Outward Lands), who would not swear fealty to the Church. Initially, Nhalassad could not conquer these lands, but with the Convergence, and the appearance of the murderous duergar, the kings of the Outward Lands allied themselves with the Emperor. The Outward Kings, who revered deities of their own, fought tooth and nail through political maneuvering and proselytising to keep their people followers of the old gods, rather than adopting the false god of their usurpers.

Over the centuries, the brutality of the duergar has brought the Outward Lands closer to the will of Izud, but even now the Old Gods are not forgotten. To destroy their faiths would be a foolish gambit, for it is only by allowing the people their own worship that Nhalassad is tolerated by the Outward Kings. Of course, the Church would never permit these heretical faiths to reach Dol'dolra; there is only the word of Izud, and as soon as they may be eliminated without enraging the populace, the kings will surely be disposed of. But that may be a long while yet.

This is a fantastic idea. While I find the concept of a unified human empire very oppresive, the idea of a human alliance - a la the Allied Powers of WWII - is a marvelous thought. Given that set-up, I'd like to suggest that the church of the Izud control the "empire" in the way the Catholic church once controlled Europe: in name, all of the kings of Europe were servants of the pope, and they were obliged to commit their armies to the defence of Christendom, but beyond that, their countries were just that - seperate countries. In other words, the human lands are united by a common culture and a pact of mutual defence, but the various human governments otherwise have no influence over one another. They even go to war with one another from time to time, or exploit the outcome of battles with outside forces to maneuver against one another.

Soup Nazi · April 10, 2006, 02:59:03 PM

QuoteThis is a fantastic idea. While I find the concept of a unified human empire very oppresive, the idea of a human alliance - a la the Allied Powers of WWII - is a marvelous thought. Given that set-up, I'd like to suggest that the church of the Izud control the "empire" in the way the Catholic church once controlled Europe: in name, all of the kings of Europe were servants of the pope, and they were obliged to commit their armies to the defence of Christendom, but beyond that, their countries were just that - seperate countries. In other words, the human lands are united by a common culture and a pact of mutual defence, but the various human governments otherwise have no influence over one another. They even go to war with one another from time to time, or exploit the outcome of battles with outside forces to maneuver against one another.

That is finally something I can get behind. I can make the outlands different nations united under the church of Izud, rather than different provinces who are oppressed by the church of Izud. It actually seems in concept to decrease the potential for conflict, but if you like it, I'll go with it.

-Nasty-

P.S. I wish I could understand why a Rome-like empire is so hard to swallow. It seems so very interesting to me, and so totally stale to you. I just don't get it.

Epic Meepo · April 10, 2006, 03:03:51 PM

Quote from: nastynateThe empire is not united in spirit outside of Dol'dolra...that's the whole schtick. The empire used to be united, but since the convergence, it has been slowly falling apart.

I still cannot realistically write about these so-called outlands however, until I know what kind of races live among the humans, and what kind of impact they might have upon the local customs. 1000 years is a very long time. If races like the Xeph, Dromites, Duergar, and so on have been known about for most of this time, and living among them for even half of it...what I write hinges greatly upon who they are, how they act, and what their goals are. [/quote]
If we are going to use Angel's suggestion, we shouldn't have one person writing about the entire human race. We should each write one or two human nations/religions that existed 1000 years ago, and then explain how they came to be allied with the church that has the strategic advantage of being farthest from non-human lands. (For that matter, we should probably also include a few human nations that no longer exist, having been completely overwhelmed by duergar, elans, and escaped maenads.) The impact of non-humans upon the existing allied nations can be determined after the cultures and early histories of the nations are worked out.

EDIT: By the way, I really like the idea of ruthless, cannibalistic duergar. Perhaps instead of converging from the edges of the human lands, their race has appeared directly underneath all human lands, and is rising up to attack humans from beneath their collective feet at every corner of the map.

Soup Nazi · April 10, 2006, 03:14:12 PM

QuoteEDIT: By the way, I really like the idea of ruthless, cannibalistic duergar. Perhaps instead of converging from the edges of the human lands, their race has appeared directly underneath all human lands, and is rising up to attack humans from beneath their collective feet at every corner of the map.

Well at least something I came up with gets approval. :D Looks like tis time to scrap Nhalassad and start over...joy of joys.

-Nasty-

Epic Meepo · April 10, 2006, 03:24:33 PM

Quote from: nastynateThat is finally something I can get behind. I can make the outlands different nations united under the church of Izud, rather than different provinces who are oppressed by the church of Izud.

It actually seems in concept to decrease the potential for conflict, but if you like it, I'll go with it.[/quote]
I beg to differ. During the various Crusades, European kings would continually manipulate the situation in an effort to undermine their neighbors. On at least one occasion, a king even managed to trick a rival into sending an army on a crusade that didn't exist in order to have his own forces lay claim to now-undefended territory. And that's not even taking into account that schism during which there were three competing popes, each claiming to be the true spiritual leader of Europe, or the Reformation which saw an open rebellion against the authority of the Catholic Church.

Epic Meepo · April 10, 2006, 03:57:46 PM

Quote from: nastynateLooks like tis time to scrap Nhalassad and start over...joy of joys.

P.S. I wish I could understand why a Rome-like empire is so hard to swallow. It seems so very interesting to me, and so totally stale to you. I just don't get it. [/quote]
Its been quite a while since I've looked at Roman history, but I have done quite a bit of research in that area in the past, so I'm a bit biased towards real-life history when it comes to Rome-like empires. The Roman Empire whose territories you listed only existed for a few short centuries before shrinking. For seven-hundred years, the Roman Republic was a powerful nation, but didn't actually claim much territory outside of modern Italy (and could not really be called an empire), and after the imperial capitol moved to Constantinople a few centuries later, the inheritors of the once-vast Roman Empire were more of a regional power than the undisputed rulers of the known world.

There just aren't any examples I can think of where an empire spanned much of the known world for more than a few hundred years. That's why there are so many massive but relatively short-lived empires in human history: the Roman Empire, the Islamic Caliphate, the Mongol Empire, the British Empire, Nazi Germany, and the USSR, to name a few. So, IMHO, it makes much more sense for various civilizations to wax and wane in power over the centuries instead of having one empire that dominates most of human history.

Soup Nazi · April 10, 2006, 04:23:54 PM

It's not a huge problem. The reason why a stopped writing was becuase I didn't want to have to scrap even more ideas. Why don't you and Angel pick out the things you like, and I can work with those ideas.

I'd like to keep the Dol'dolra, and do a revised write up of the church. If I can keep these two ideas, I'll be a happy camper. Maybe I can simply make Dol'dolra like the holy land, center of the church, and a theoretically neutral theocracy at the heart of the human territories.

I can also come up with a history of the church, and their crusades to consolidate the people of the human lands under a single faith. If I can't have imperial conquest, at least I can have spiritual conquest. Yay! It could have been a campaign of propoganda, conversion, and jihad when necessary. Does that sound acceptable?

-Nasty-

SA · April 10, 2006, 04:43:07 PM

Indubitably. Dol'dolra is fine in my opinion, so long as it comprises little more than Nhalassad's true imperial heart. I like the Theocracy, and I think it would be a shame to drop it. A history of the church would also be a good idea.

Soup Nazi · April 10, 2006, 04:54:21 PM

Nhalassad could become the name of the region or the continent I guess, and Dol'dolra could be a theocratic nation unto itself. Most of the key concepts could remain intact other than the geo-political structure.

I'll see if I can come up with something new for both, but derived from what I've already made. At least I don't have to completely rewrite things.

I think a union of human nations kind of puts Calleith in an awkward position too..If the human nations only recently allied, do they think the Elan are human too? I thinks that's probably the best option.

-Nasty-

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