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Magic Punk

Started by Gnomemaster, August 25, 2007, 03:42:54 PM

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Gnomemaster

Good Ideas, Im moving past the D&D core classes, but I will keep that in mind.

Ra-Tiel

Quote from: Gnomemaster[...] Let me know what you think, Ra-Tiel I miss your comments.
Sorry, I got "distracted" lately. :( But now I'm back. :D

Quote from: GnomemasterWell, classes represent archetypes in fantasy, I want those classes to represent archetypes in my Universe.
So, let's see... ;)

Quote from: GnomemasterA Fighter is the soldier character, they can choose to specialized in combat (both ranged or melee) or train as pilots (taking piloting feats)

A Rogue represents not only the thief, but could also be the pilot. Rogue get a lot of skills and could apply those toward piloting.
Here I see the first problem. I can imagine the rogue being the actual pilot and fighters being the gunners and "tactical officers", but unless you seriously improve the fighter's class skills and skillpoints, a rogue will always outperform a fighter as a pilot. A rogue only misses 5 points BAB compared to the fighter, while the fighter misses 6 skillpoints per level and a huge amount of class skills to the rogue.

Quote from: GnomemasterA Cleric is not only the healer but also the engineer aboard the ship. They also preserve the crew from demonic threats.
Something similar occurs here. Unless ships in your setting are completely built from magitech, a cleric has just not enough skillpoints to learn electronics, mechanics, etc well enough to actually keep the "mundane" systems of a ship running and operational. And while there are several spells that could take care of that, there are situations where it's just not possible ("that hull breach has to be repaired now, and not one day later when the cleric has refreshed his spells").

On a related note, why don't you consider using the Artificer for that role? You could always tweak the flavor so that artificers also belong to a church and gain their powers from Vanic (or some other god). Just like paladins are the "martial" arm of a church, artificers could be the "technological" arm of a church.

Quote from: GnomemasterA Wizard/Sorcerer controls a lot of the weaponry aboard a ship and also can enchant weapons (imagine firing molten bullets)
While being a good idea, spontaneously enhancing a ship's weapons is impractical. Most of these spells (I guess you think of greater magic weapon and similar spells) usually only work on a single weapon or 50 units of ammunition. What good does it do have one of your ship's 30 lasers being +4 or something? You'd only have to track attacks and damage from this single laser seperately, which makes combat more complicated and time consuming.

Also, contrary to mounted combat or combat occuring on "typical" DnD vessels (open ships, wagons, etc), a starship will almost always block either line of sight and/or line of effect to an outside target, thus negating most of an arcane caster's arsenal.

Quote from: GnomemasterPaladins are the militant arms of the religions, they lead giant crusades across planets and can choose a speeder or motorcycle as their mount instead of just animals.
Did I hear someone say "KITT"? :D

Quote from: GnomemasterRangers are bounty hunters and sometimes law enforcement. They also tend to serve as soldiers in the planetary legions. Rangers can also be alien assassins.
No problems here. :)

Quote from: GnomemasterMonks train in combat as well as the paths toward enlightenment, this can be a hard one to implement. Any suggestions?
This one could become very interesting, as LC's comments already suggested. ;)

Quote from: Stargate525Personally, I would make your ships run off of a variant of the VP/WP system, where the VP is the shield, and WP is the ship itself. [...]
Also an interesting idea. But how would then armor fit into the calculations? Armor would then need to function as DR, or it wouldn't make any sense. Using armor as AC wouldn't work, because the "shields" are hit before the blast reaches the hull.

Quote from: Stargate525Also, about how the God controls space travel, to get around the 'how does he let this happen?' problem, you could make it so that it was some sort of ancient pact, and he's duty-bound to honor his end of the bargain, no matter what the purpose is?
But wouldn't this basically cement the Vanic's alignment into LN or N (or possibly LE)? In the past, he could have been good, but after centuries and millenia of people using and abusing his granted powers for all sorts of bad things, and he wouldn't dare to interfere would change everybody imho.

Also, what would be the other end of the deal? Why should he have agreed to such a contract?

Stargate525

Quote from: Ra-TielAlso an interesting idea. But how would then armor fit into the calculations? Armor would then need to function as DR, or it wouldn't make any sense. Using armor as AC wouldn't work, because the "shields" are hit before the blast reaches the hull.
Think about what you're putting the armor on. You've got a huge-ass ship being fired at by  another huge-ass ship. Neither one, barring smaller craft and horrible gunners, will miss at any real rate. And armor in its normal sense wouldn't work in either case; it wouldn't make the other guy miss, and it certainly won't allow the GIANT LASER BOLT to glance off the hull.

I'd say make the various armors give a multiplier to the 'wound points' of the ships, which represent the extra stuff you've got to fire through before you get to anything really critical. This might work best as a three tiered system, where you need to fire through the shields, then the armor, then you get to the crippling of the ship.

Quote from: Ra-TielBut wouldn't this basically cement the Vanic's alignment into LN or N (or possibly LE)? In the past, he could have been good, but after centuries and millenia of people using and abusing his granted powers for all sorts of bad things, and he wouldn't dare to interfere would change everybody imho.
Is that really a problem? I would see a god of roads as neutral, and Vanic is essentially the god of very long, very fast moving walkways.

Quote from: Ra-TielAlso, what would be the other end of the deal? Why should he have agreed to such a contract?
Gods gain power through worship. Using that contract, Vanic has just secured the direct worship of all FTL ships' engineers, and indirect worship from everyone who uses FTL travel. The answer; POWER, and lots of it.

Quote from: Ra-TielWhile being a good idea, spontaneously enhancing a ship's weapons is impractical. Most of these spells (I guess you think of greater magic weapon and similar spells) usually only work on a single weapon or 50 units of ammunition. What good does it do have one of your ship's 30 lasers being +4 or something? You'd only have to track attacks and damage from this single laser seperately, which makes combat more complicated and time consuming.

Also, contrary to mounted combat or combat occuring on "typical" DnD vessels (open ships, wagons, etc), a starship will almost always block either line of sight and/or line of effect to an outside target, thus negating most of an arcane caster's arsenal.
My guess is that any bonuses like that would be increased to a ship-wide bonus. Similarly, have you never seen spaceships with windows? You're moving pretty far away from normal D&D, so line of effect will probably have a radically different meaning in ship to ship combat.
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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Gnomemaster

well now, we got some good stuff going down now.

First of all, I have been working on some new classes, and moving farther and farther away from the d20 system. These are going to be similar to the PHB classes, but more focused. A lot of the spells that are going to be cast will be new and unique (so no, we probably won't be using greater magic weapon or anything) There are a few new things, like ritual magic that requires other casters to help you (thus more powerful spells), then I was thinking of using the Altar to Vanic as a central hub for spells, magic flows through it and is redirected or strengthened through it's circuitry.

So if you wanted, you could arm the rear battery guns with +2 EMP shots by casting it through the altar. this of course won't be free.

Someone mentioned the price to pay, The price I want is for your sanity to be on the line. The more and more we deal with more powerful magic and bizzare demons from Hell the more crazy we become.

Certain spells will require you to make a Will save to cast them, once done the spell is cast, but if you fail you take insanity damage.


Stargate525

Reminds me of River from Firefly; nuts, but can do stuff that's absolutely INSANE.
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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Ra-Tiel

Quote from: Stargate525Think about what you're putting the armor on. You've got a huge-ass ship being fired at by  another huge-ass ship. Neither one, barring smaller craft and horrible gunners, will miss at any real rate. And armor in its normal sense wouldn't work in either case; it wouldn't make the other guy miss, and it certainly won't allow the GIANT LASER BOLT to glance off the hull.

I'd say make the various armors give a multiplier to the 'wound points' of the ships, which represent the extra stuff you've got to fire through before you get to anything really critical. This might work best as a three tiered system, where you need to fire through the shields, then the armor, then you get to the crippling of the ship.
The problem is that at some point you HAVE to include a hardness/DR mechanic, and if just to avoid the situation where a guy in a spacesuit kills a main fleet carrier by shooting 10k times with his handgun at it. Or could you destroy an M1 Abrams or Leopard 2A6 with your slingshot?

Quote from: Stargate525Is that really a problem? I would see a god of roads as neutral, and Vanic is essentially the god of very long, very fast moving walkways.
Definitively an option. I just got the impression that Gnomemaster wanted Vanic to not be the stereotypical "don't care" type of travelling god. ;)

Quote from: Stargate525Gods gain power through worship. Using that contract, Vanic has just secured the direct worship of all FTL ships' engineers, and indirect worship from everyone who uses FTL travel. The answer; POWER, and lots of it.
Not necessarily. The principle "gods gain power through worship" always creates a "hen and egg" problem, sort of. How did the god happen to be a god in the first place? If he has always been a god, who worshipped him at first?

IIRC, Deities and Demigods had some good points on these problems.

Quote from: Stargate525My guess is that any bonuses like that would be increased to a ship-wide bonus. Similarly, have you never seen spaceships with windows? You're moving pretty far away from normal D&D, so line of effect will probably have a radically different meaning in ship to ship combat.
If you rework the rules regarding LoS, LoE, targets and ranges for ships, there are two possible outcomes.

1) The rules change on the whole range, opening up a MASSIVE loophole in "normal" magic. Suddenly, you can use a spell to make a wall transparent and cast baleful polymorph on someone behind it, the range of your disintegrate suddenly increases by a huge amount just because you now sit in a car, and other possibly... well... let's call it "unintentional" results.

2) The rules only apply to spells regarding spaceships, creating a dichotomy in the rules. Why should these rules only work on a spaceship, and not on an airplane, zeppelin, sea-going vessel, trainwagon, mule-drawn cart? This would force the DM and players to work with two seperate systems for one and the same thing.



Also, I must say that the setting's current stage somehow reminds me on WH40k. :D Demons, gods, bad aliens, magitech. ;)

Stargate525

Quote from: Ra-TielThe problem is that at some point you HAVE to include a hardness/DR mechanic, and if just to avoid the situation where a guy in a spacesuit kills a main fleet carrier by shooting 10k times with his handgun at it. Or could you destroy an M1 Abrams or Leopard 2A6 with your slingshot?
Er... yes?

Seriously, in a system where a God can be hit, FOR DAMAGE, once every 400 attacks, does the fact that a guy can sit at a ship, firing for almost four hours and destroy a starship matter?

If you want, you could make ship hitpoints and people hitpoints different numbers, say 10/1. That way, someone shooting a gun (calibrated on human hitpoints) needs to divide the damage by ten, round down, then apply it. Best of luck shooting through those shields.

Quote from: Ra-TielNot necessarily. The principle "gods gain power through worship" always creates a "hen and egg" problem, sort of. How did the god happen to be a god in the first place? If he has always been a god, who worshipped him at first?
New on your reading list is Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett. Explains everything.

Quote from: Ra-TielIf you rework the rules regarding LoS, LoE, targets and ranges for ships, there are two possible outcomes...
Or you could make each 'gun' a receiver of the arcane power, and allows you to gain line of sight and effect without exposing yourself to the vacuum of space.
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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Gnomemaster

To answer your 40K comment, I love 40K, but honestly, you can sit there and say "Wow, that sounds a whole lot like..." about almost anything. My goal is to take inspiration from several sources (Warhammer 40k, Star Trek, Star Wars etc.)

Lmns Crn

Am I to infer that Vanic was a mortal who pioneered the human empire's expansion, and ascended to godhood to continually foster that expansion by facilitating FTL travel? The image of Vanic as a sort of distant god-emperor is quite compelling.
I move quick: I'm gonna try my trick one last time--
you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

Ra-Tiel

Quote from: Stargate525Er... yes?

Seriously, in a system where a God can be hit, FOR DAMAGE, once every 400 attacks, does the fact that a guy can sit at a ship, firing for almost four hours and destroy a starship matter?
If the guy is using a weapon that is stopped by an average kevlar vest, imho HELL YES! :P

Quote from: Stargate525If you want, you could make ship hitpoints and people hitpoints different numbers, say 10/1. That way, someone shooting a gun (calibrated on human hitpoints) needs to divide the damage by ten, round down, then apply it. Best of luck shooting through those shields.
And that is in what way easier and faster than applying DR? Also, I thought shields were just "a ship's vitality points", so why would I have to have much luck beating those? Even if my attack only dealt 1 point per hit, eventually I would wear down any shield and would perforate any hull armor, no matter if I was using a 4mm pistol, a .50 sniper rifle, or a 30mm anti-tank cannon. :?:

Quote from: Stargate525New on your reading list is Small Gods, by Terry Pratchett. Explains everything.
I usually don't read Pratchett. :-|

Quote from: Stargate525Or you could make each 'gun' a receiver of the arcane power, and allows you to gain line of sight and effect without exposing yourself to the vacuum of space.
This is a very powerful effect. However, I could imagine it being possible if you can only apply this to specially prepared "mage-fire weapons(tm)" or something. Perhaps project image could be used as a prerequisite for constucting such special weapons, with a more powerful version being available with astral projection. To use a mage-fire weapon, a caster would have to put his personal arcane mark on it first to "attune" the weapon to himself, but then he could cast his spells directly onto them. Same thing could work for special "mage-sight cameras(tm)".

Gnomemaster

Quote from: Luminous CrayonAm I to infer that Vanic was a mortal who pioneered the human empire's expansion, and ascended to godhood to continually foster that expansion by facilitating FTL travel? The image of Vanic as a sort of distant god-emperor is quite compelling.

I'm thinking so. The idea is that the humans of my game are all descendants of some of the dregs of Earth society. Not sure if they are actually refugees or convicts sent on a suicide mission. If I were to use the latter, we will see two human faction, the original probably benevolent humans from earth, and the more ruthless Empire of Man.

Vanic was indeed a man, possibly an emperor, but I prefer the idea of an explorer who helped recreate FTL travel (because the Imperial humans had lost it) through magic. Now your comment of god-emperor being compelling, what do you mean?

Stargate525

Quote from: Ra-TielAnd that is in what way easier and faster than applying DR? Also, I thought shields were just "a ship's vitality points", so why would I have to have much luck beating those? Even if my attack only dealt 1 point per hit, eventually I would wear down any shield and would perforate any hull armor, no matter if I was using a 4mm pistol, a .50 sniper rifle, or a 30mm anti-tank cannon. :?:
I thought we were also going to do the 'shield points slowly regenerate'. Either way, you would have to do more than 10 points of damage to even DO damage, and even then only 1 point. And seriously, if you've got to worry about someone HACKING AT YOUR SHIP WITH A SWORD, you need to rethink your battle plan.
Quote from: Ra-TielI usually don't read Pratchett. :-|
Then I'll boil it down for you. Essentially, there are millions of Gods, buzzing around in a semi-animalistic state, awaiting worshipers, and with little to no power. Once they manage to get a single follower (the muttered prayer of thanks for finding a lost sheep, for instance) they get the ability to perform more and more powerful things, finally becoming a God in the typical sense. The God can also die when no-one believes in the God, but believes in the hierarchy built around the God.
Quote from: Ra-TielThis is a very powerful effect. However, I could imagine it being possible if you can only apply this to specially prepared "mage-fire weapons(tm)" or something. Perhaps project image could be used as a prerequisite for constucting such special weapons, with a more powerful version being available with astral projection. To use a mage-fire weapon, a caster would have to put his personal arcane mark on it first to "attune" the weapon to himself, but then he could cast his spells directly onto them. Same thing could work for special "mage-sight cameras(tm)".
I don't see how this would be a very powerful effect... You don't want it to be too damned difficult to shoot a gun, do you?

I also am strongly against the personal mark, as then all you have to do is kill the caster, and the gun is rendered totally inoperable.
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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Ra-Tiel

Quote from: Stargate525I thought we were also going to do the 'shield points slowly regenerate'. Either way, you would have to do more than 10 points of damage to even DO damage, and even then only 1 point. And seriously, if you've got to worry about someone HACKING AT YOUR SHIP WITH A SWORD, you need to rethink your battle plan.
Don't you remember one of the very core rules of the d20 system? ;)

d20srd.org says:
Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.


And that last part with the guy with a sword... I take the orc frenzied berserker with an adamantine greatsword as the single member of my boarding party... :P

Quote from: Stargate525Then I'll boil it down for you. Essentially, there are millions of Gods, buzzing around in a semi-animalistic state, awaiting worshipers, and with little to no power. Once they manage to get a single follower (the muttered prayer of thanks for finding a lost sheep, for instance) they get the ability to perform more and more powerful things, finally becoming a God in the typical sense. The God can also die when no-one believes in the God, but believes in the hierarchy built around the God.
Ahh, interesting. But I wonder how this would work in a scifi setting...

Quote from: Stargate525I don't see how this would be a very powerful effect... You don't want it to be too damned difficult to shoot a gun, do you?
You don't see how creating magical effects without direct line of sight AND line of effect is powerful? Damn, I know at least 3 wizards who would KILL for such an ability. :huh:

Quote from: Stargate525I also am strongly against the personal mark, as then all you have to do is kill the caster, and the gun is rendered totally inoperable.
Are you now making the wizard the sole gunner on a ship? Where did I say that the gun would require the mark to be used? It would merely require that mark to receive certain weapon enhancing spells. ;)

Lmns Crn

Quote from: GnomemasterNow your comment of god-emperor being compelling, what do you mean?
Maybe I've jumped to too big a conclusion, but your post in the other thread seems to imply that it's Vanic's leadership that allowed the human empire to become successful, and he presumably became their Emperor.

Now, somehow or other, Vanic has reached the status of a god, and guides all FTL travel-- technology that the empire uses to discover new lands, conquer them, and subjugate their natives. So in a way, by providing FTL travel, god-style-Vanic is still playing a very important role in vital imperial affairs. (Even if he doesn't ever do anything anymore except grant spells, etc.)

So, what if Vanic didn't step down from his position as Emperor when he became a god? Even if god-style-Vanic is too "abstract" to communicate with his followers at all, the Empire might continue to hail him as a leader, especially if he was influential and powerful while still a mortal. You could easily end up with an empire whose operation is governed by, say, some sort of council of mortals who "interpret Vanic's mysterious will", but who expand their territory in the name of their nominal Emperor, the Great Star-God Vanic.

Maybe Vanic got some magic/technology from the Voth that allowed him to transcend the mortal state and become a god. Maybe he made some sort of serious trade with them for the privilege of godhood, or maybe he stole the power somehow. Maybe it did something to him that he didn't expect, like render him incapable of leading his empire directly the way a mortal Emperor could, and no one else realizes the truth of his miscalculation.

Anyway, Vanic is already going to be "everywhere" in this setting, just for the fact that he's required for all FTL travel. Perhaps a mysterious or silent Vanic who is also revered as a holy Emperor could be an interesting centerpiece for the empire.
I move quick: I'm gonna try my trick one last time--
you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

Stargate525

Quote from: Ra-TielDon't you remember one of the very core rules of the d20 system? ;)

d20srd.org says:
Rounding Fractions
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.
Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.

Okay, Mr. 'I need to be perfect,' all ships have DR 1/-.  :-/
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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