The Campaign Builder's Guild

I will have to vote for.....not classless and levelless or class/template but....classless system (with levels!)

Quote from: AtlantisI will have to vote for.....not classless and levelless or class/template but....classless system (with levels!)

You always expect to get special treatment, don't you? :P

However, how about a different idea. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Earthdawn system, but perhaps that may be something worth looking into further for our system. Earthdawn basically combines skillbased and levelbased system. It works the following: Earthdawn has 15 "circles" instead of levels. At each level, you gain access to a certain amount of talents (different from d20 talents; think of them as "magical skills") you can choose from, dependent on "discipline" (similar to class) you follow. To reach a new circle, however, you have to attain a certain number of ranks in a certain number of talents. If you have the required ranks, you can perform a special ritual (IIRC, been quite awhile since I last dealt with ED) and actually increase in circle.

To translate into DnD-speek: we could make "classes" that don't actually grant any bonuses (like BAB, or saves) but rather provide a list of talent trees the character gains access to after a certain level. To increase in levels, a character would need to have a certain minimum rank in some of the classes granted talent trees, and then automatically gains access to higher level talent trees. Which class grants access to which talent trees (which imho should still be equal in power and scale linearily if possible) should be decided upon flavor and concept (eg a melee class granting access to DR and damage boosting talents much earlier than a gish class, which in turn would have access earlier than a second rank warrior, etc).

good idea. i vote for that

OK, hammered some quick ideas together.

[spoiler=example talent trees]BATTLE INSTINCT TALENT TREE
Your instincts provide a valuable ally in the thick of battle.
Passive bonus: You reduce miss chances in melee by 1 point per rank.
Active bonus: You reduce miss chances in melee by 2 points per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

CRIPPLING STRIKE TALENT TREE
Your attacks leave your enemies weakened and broken.
Passive bonus: You impose a -1 morale penalty per rank on all checks made by your opponent for 1 round with a successful attack.
Active bonus: You impose a -2 morale penalty per rank on all checks made by your opponent for 1 round with a successful attack.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

DERVISH TALENT TREE
You become blurred flash in battle.
Passive bonus: You gain a +1 haste bonus to armor class per rank.
Active bonus: You gain a +5ft bonus to your base speed per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

DESTROYER TALENT TREE
You can bring to bear terrible strength with your blows, easily breaking through your target's resistance.
Passive bonus: You ignore 1 point of your target's damage reduction or hardness per rank.
Active bonus: You ignore 2 points of your target's damage reduction or hardness per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

DREADNOUGHT TALENT TREE
Your extensive training allows you to deal devestating blows with close combat weapons.
Passive bonus: You deal +1 point bonus damage per rank when using a melee weapon.
Active bonus: You deal +2 points bonus damage per rank when using a melee weapon.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

FEARSOME BRUTE TALENT TREE
Your hulking sight alone instills fear in your enemies.
Passive bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to Intimidate per rank.
Active bonus: You gain frightful presence with a range of 5ft per rank. An opponent within this area witnessing you attacking or charging must make a Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your BAB + your Charisma modifier) or become shaken.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

JUGGERNAUT TALENT TREE
You have become so battle-hardened that you can shrug off your opponents' blows.
Passive bonus: You gain damage reduction 1/- per rank.
Active bonus: You gain damage reduction 2/- per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

KEEN EYED TALENT TREE
You have eyes like an eagle and can discern even the most minor details.
Passive bonus: You reduce miss chances in ranged combat by 1 point per rank.
Active bonus: You reduce miss chances in ranged combat by 2 points per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

PIERCING SHOT TALENT TREE
Your arrows pierce their first targets, striking others further down their deadly path.
Passive bonus: Your arrows have a 2% chance per rank of piercing their first target. You can make an additional attack roll with the same bonus as the initial attack against a single target behind your first target in a straight line.
Active bonus: Your arrows have a 4% chance per rank of piercing their first target. You can make an additional attack roll with the same bonus as the initial attack against a single target behind your first target in a straight line.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

RESISTANCE TALENT TREE
Your focus and determination allows you to ignore debilating effects from fire and cold.
Passive bonus: You gain 1 point resistance to fire and cold per rank.
Active bonus: You gain 2 points resistance to fire and cold per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

SCOUT TALENT TREE
You have finely tuned senses, attentively surveying your surroundings.
Passive bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to Spot and Listen per rank.
Active bonus: You gain blindsense with a range of 5ft per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per round.

SHARPSHOOTER TALENT TREE
You have earned a reputation as a fearsome archer, inflicting deep wounds with your arrows.
Passive bonus: You deal +1 point bonus damage per rank when using a ranged weapon.
Active bonus: You deal +2 points bonus damage per rank when using a ranged weapon.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

SNEAK TALENT TREE
You have mastered the art of exploiting unaware opponents' weaknesses in combat.
Passive bonus: You deal +1 point bonus damage per rank against flat-footed or unaware opponents.
Active bonus: You deal +2 points bonus damage per rank against flat-footed or unaware opponents.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

SNIPER TALENT TREE
Your arrows strike true at ranges farther than anyone thought possible.
Passive bonus: You reduce range penalties by 1 point per rank.
Active bonus: You reduce range penalties by 2 points per rank.
Cost: 1 focus point per rank per attack.

TRAJECTORY TALENT TREE
You know how to fire your weapon at ranges thought impossible.
Passive bonus: You increase your weapon's first range increment by +5ft per rank.
Active bonus: You increase your weapon's first and last range increment each by +5ft per rank.
Cost:[/spoiler]

[spoiler=example classes]WARRIOR

Level 1:
- Destroyer
- Dreadnought
- Juggernaut
- Sharpshooter

Level 2:
- Battle Instinct
- Resistance
- Sniper

Level 3:
- Dervish
- Keen Eyed

Level 4:
- Crippling Strike
- Fearsome Brute

Level 5:
- Scout
- Sneak Attack



ARCHER

Level 1:
- Dervish
- Keen Eyed
- Sharpshooter
- Sniper

Level 2:
- Scout
- Sneak Attack
- Trajectory

Level 3:
- Juggernaut
- Resistance

Level 4:
- Battle Instinct
- Dreadnought

Level 5:
- Crippling Strike
- Piercing Shot[/spoiler]

I must say, I really do like a system where the classes directly give you skills. Also, instead of xp being gained from killing monsters, we could have requirements fufilled before you could gain a level. Like a theif would have succesfully picked so many pockets, opened so many chests, and sneak atk'd so many beings.

Quote from: Sir VorpalI must say, I really do like a system where the classes directly give you skills.

What do you mean? My suggestion borrowed from Earthdawn, or something else? In a way, I was trying something similar with the mechanics for the Worldgate Campaign Setting. Everything was based on skills: saves, fighting, spellcasting.

Quote from: Sir VorpalAlso, instead of xp being gained from killing monsters, we could have requirements fufilled before you could gain a level.

That may work for a computer game, but I don't think it would work in a PnP system. It would either cripple certain PCs, or force the DM to artificially modify his campaign to accomodate for each class's "advancement requirements".

Quote from: Sir VorpalLike a theif would have succesfully picked so many pockets, opened so many chests, and sneak atk'd so many beings.

If you have a campaign where an evil cleric is threatening the kingdom with his army of undead, there won't be much chance for sneak attacking in the major combats, and locks to pick may also be rare. On the other hand, in a game focussing primarily on social interaction, the bard would be WAY ahead of everyone, including levels, because a fighter or barbarian just cannot successfully make those checks often enough.

Given the situation and campaign, it could make advancement nigh impossible for certain classes, depending on how you word the prerequisites. Don't get me wrong, the idea has some appeal, but I think it's better left as an optional variant to qualify for feats and PrCs (see Test-based prerequisites).

Also, you would have to make advancement more and more difficult, as with each gained level certain tasks come more easy for the PCs (like using certain skills, or making attack rolls). This would lead to a non-linear advancement rate (eg, must do 5 "acts" to gain level 2, must do 7 "acts" to gain level 3, must do 9 "acts" to gain level 4, etc), which is imho one of the problems of DnD. I personally would want to keep everything as linear as possible (advancement, power gain, etc).

Additionally you would have to keep a close eye on possible abuse. Now, a "clever" rogue could possibly earn some levels by playing "tricks" on every commoner in each village the PCs run across. He would rob them blind, then show them "I bet I can take your ring without you even noticing...", thus easily fulfilling the level prerequisites and jumping ahead in the power curve. Similarily, spellcasters would probably advance by "casting spells", which becomes a little rediculous when in down time the wizard prepares prestidigitation 20 times and mage hand 15 times, just for the sake of levelling up.

Addendum: something I forgot in my previous posts is how many talents of a given rank you would need to have to increase a "circle". Assuming each class grants 4 talents at circle 1, 3 talents at circle 2, and 2 more talents at each subsequent circle up to 15 (which is close to how the system worked in Earthdawn), each class would offer a total of 4 + 3 + 13*2 = 33 talents. Therefore, the minimum requirements could look like the following.

[table=Circle advancement]
[tr][th]Circle[/th][th]total # of talents[/th][th]minimum # of talents for advancement[/th][th]minimum # of ranks in each talent for advancement[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]4[/td][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]9[/td][td]5[/td][td]6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]11[/td][td]6[/td][td]7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]13[/td][td]7[/td][td]8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]15[/td][td]8[/td][td]9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]17[/td][td]9[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]19[/td][td]10[/td][td]11[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]21[/td][td]11[/td][td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]23[/td][td]12[/td][td]13[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11[/td][td]25[/td][td]13[/td][td]14[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]27[/td][td]14[/td][td]15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td][td]29[/td][td]15[/td][td]16[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14[/td][td]31[/td][td]16[/td][td]17[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]33[/td][td]-[/td][td]-[/td][/tr]
[/table]

For example, if you are circle 1 you would need at least 2 talents with 4 ranks each to advance to circle 2. Or if you are circle 10 you would need at least 12 talents with 13 ranks each to advance to circle 11. Obviously, there are no more requirement after circle 14.

A mechanic like this would also take care of the problem of characters advancing too quickly if all costs scale linearily. If we make each rank cost a constant amount of IPs, eg 10, we could keep the advancement mechanics very simple compared to systems like GURPS or WoD. Assuming a constant gain of 25 IPs per session, it would take a character at least 4 sessions to advance from circle 1 to circle 2 (2 talents with 4 ranks == 80 IPs). However, it would take a character at least 8 sessions to advance from circle 8 to circle 9 (he has: 9 talents with 10 ranks each == 900, he needs: 10 talents with 11 ranks each == 1100, difference: 200). And finally, it would take a character at least 14 sessions to advance from circle 14 to circle 15 (he has: 15 talents with 16 ranks each == 2400, he needs: 16 talents with 17 ranks each == 2720, difference: 320).

Of course these numbers are open to tweaking and not perfectly accurate. But I hope I got the point across. ;)

I know there are possible problems if the maximum ranks wouldn't be capped somehow (like a circle 2 character running around with DR 40/-). The original Earthdawn didn't have a cap based on circle (but rather the maximum ranks for talents and skills was 15), and buying later ranks got increasingly more costly. We could make it so that the maximum rank any talent may have is circle + 3.

me votes for Classless/Talent System

OMG, brainstorm alert! All hands on battlestations! :o

Ok, just another idea we could work off. Instead of giving fixed effects (talent X grants bonus A, talent Y grants bonus B, etc), why not make a flexible system that gives you more options and flexibility in combat? I was thinking of a system that allows characters to build the bonuses they need as time arises, but requires a die roll, similar to a skill check. It would work similar to Ars Magica's spellcasting system.

The following is just a quick hackjob of example I'm wrestling from my brain while I try to prepare a short Shadowrun adventure for a local con in two day's time. :-/

[table=Combat Arts]
[tr][th]Technique[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Block[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dodge[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Jump[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Parry[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Run[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sneak[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Strike[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Tumble[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Form[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Aggressive[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Defensive[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Determined[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Planning[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stealthy[/td][/tr]
[/table]

The system would work like this. You'd have "ranks" in both techniques and forms, and you can combine them on the fly as you need. You would make a roll d20 + ranks in technique + ranks in form, and depending on the result you'd gain a certain benefit. For example, if you'd make an "aggressive sneake", you'd gain a variable amount of sneak attack for one round. A "defensive strike" would give you a fixed amount of AC bonus while substracting from your attack roll (think "Combat Expertise"), while a "determined block" would give you great bonuses to AC but restricted your movement somewhat.

I know that many things don't really make sense (what's a "planning tumble"?) and that others are redundant ("aggressive sneak" vs "stealthy strike"), but I hope I got the point and basic idea across. :)

I like it. We would have to figure out exactly what each one does, but that shouldn't be too hard.

I think the techniques should do something specific (ie, sneak attack, increase AC) and the forms have a benefit and a drawback, say defensive increases AC by X, but reduces your attack and damage by Y.

Quote from: Stargate525I like it. We would have to figure out exactly what each one does, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Thanks. Man, when I try to prepare adventures I get all those freaky ideas... :huh:

Quote from: Stargate525I think the techniques should do something specific (ie, sneak attack, increase AC) and the forms have a benefit and a drawback, say defensive increases AC by X, but reduces your attack and damage by Y.

Another idea. Instead of making "random" things, how about we concentrate on the basics that make up the d20 system?

[table=Combat Arts]
[tr][th]Technique[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Aggressive[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Dextrous[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Enduring[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Cunning[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Insightful[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Determined[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Form[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Defense[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Endurance[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Resistance[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Run[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Skill[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Strike[/td][/tr]
[/table]
The techniques would be associated with the 6 abilities, while the forms would be associated with AC, DR, saves, speed, skill checks, and attack rolls. If you combine technique + form, you get a bonus based on your check result from the technique and an additional "always on" effect from the form for a single round.

For example:

Quote from:  d20 + 11, and - for example - get a total result of 23. Looking in the technique's description, a check result of 23 means I get my strength modifier + 2 as a bonus. Looking up the form's description, I can put the bonus either towards my attack roll or the damage roll.

We could also make feats like
[quoteCOMBAT ART FOCUS (GENERAL)
You are a specialist of employing a certain combat art.
Benefit: Select a single technique or form. You may use that art one more time per encounter.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

Just some more random thoughts. :P

This is looking good. I'm enjoying watching it unfold, haha.

Now now, we can't let this thing die, can we? :P Also, other people making suggestions and providing ideas would be a nice thing, too. ;)

So, what do you think of my ideas so far? Which do you like most, and why (speaking from a mechanical point of view). Any comments on the
- talent trees where characters must buy each talent seperately?
- talents where characters improve talents by putting ranks in them and only gain access to more talents with higher levels?
- free form Combat Arts system?

Quote from: Ra-TielNow now, we can't let this thing die, can we? :P Also, other people making suggestions and providing ideas would be a nice thing, too. ;)

So, what do you think of my ideas so far? Which do you like most, and why (speaking from a mechanical point of view). Any comments on the
- talent trees where characters must buy each talent seperately?
- talents where characters improve talents by putting ranks in them and only gain access to more talents with higher levels?
- free form Combat Arts system?

No, no we cant let this die, and i would be making sugestions if i had any.

I prefer talents to be gained seperately, where each talent has minimum requirements (skill ranks, previous talents, BAB, BMB etc...)that a character must meet before being able to select the talent, and where talents can only be gained by gaining levels.

Also it seems that the majority vote is for the classless/talent system, unless anyone changed their minds i think we can start hammering out the details.

free form combat arts is good. It would probably be simpler than the DnD combat system.