The Campaign Builder's Guild

Born from some pondering for the campaign builder's system, I came up with a rough draft for a variant d20 system. It is primarily based on the number "3" (hence the name ;) ) and incorporates some unique ideas I recently had. Ok, enough of the talk, time for some crunch.

[spoiler=Tri20]
[spoiler=Abilities]
[note=Designer's note]Abilities in Tri20 are divided in three categories: Body, Mind, and Soul. Each category contains three subabilities, who can be modified from its basic value on a 1-to-1 basis and deviate from the basic value by at most 3 points.[/note]
Body (BODY)
* Constitution (CON)
* Dexterity (DEX)
* Strength (STR)
Mind (MIND)
* Intuition (INT)
* Perception (PER)
* Willpower (WIL)
Soul (SOUL)
* Charisma (CHA)
* Instinct (INS)
* Karma (KAR)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Skills]
[note=Designer's note]Contrary to standard d20, skills are not generally associated with a certain ability, but rather only with an ability category. The GM determines in game which ability is suitable for the current task, making the whole system much more flexible. Also, the skill mechanics work differently than in normal DnD. Each character can basically attempt any skill check. However, his maximum possible degree of success is determined by his ranks. No matter what, a character can only achieve a maximum result at a skill check equal to 10+his ranks in that skill. This makes skill ranks much more valuable than high abilities (which only make a maximum result more likely). Further, each skill has three fields of application. Many skills have fixed fields, while some allow the player to select three fields of his choice to customize his character.[/note]
Body
* Acrobatics (Balance, Escape artist, Tumble)
* Athletics (Climb, Jump, Swim)
* Close combat (any three categories)
* Ranged combat (any three categories)
* Sleight of Hand (Legerdemain, Pantomime, Pick pocket)
* Stealth (Hide, Shadow, Sneak)
* Steer (Mounts, Ships, Vehicles)
Mind
* Agriculture (Animal husbandry, Farming, Handle animal)
* Concentration (Block distraction, Focus, Ignore wound)
* Craft (Appraise, Create, Forgery)
* Knowledge (any three categories)
* Medicine (Stabilize, Surgery, Tend)
* Sabotage (Analyze weakness, Disable device, Open lock)
* Wilderness Lore (Navigate, Track, Survival)
Soul
* Administration (Bureaucracy, Heraldry, Law)
* Arts (any three categories)
* Command (Leadership, Rally, Tactics)
* Communication (Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather information)
* Culture (any three cultures)
* Language (any three languages)
* Subterfuge (Bluff, Disguise, Feint)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Stats]
[note=Designer's note]Tri20 does not use any point-based mechanic to keep track of a character's status, but instead uses conditions of varying intensity to do so. Wounds represent a character's health status, fatigue represents his physical status, and focus represents his mental status. Each condition has a "normal" state and 3 states of "penalties". Attacks do not cause normal damage, but rather force more severe conditions on a character, making him finally fall unconcsious or kill him.[/note]
Conditions
* Fatigue (fresh -- fatigued, exhausted, unconcsious)
* Focus (focused -- spent, enervated, drained)
* Wounds (healthy -- light, serious, critical)
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Character creation]
[note=Designer's note]Character creation in Tri20 is done by following these steps:
#1: Distribute 9 points among the character's ability categories and modify his subabilities accordingly. No ability category may be initially higher than 6 before racial modifiers.
#2: Select the character's origin. This gives 3 preallocated skill ranks depending on where the character was born and spend his early childhood.
#3: Select the character's upbrining. This gives 6 preallocated skill ranks depending on how the character was raised and which social status he has.
#4: Select the character's background. This gives 9 preallocated skill ranks depending on what profession the character learned and how he spent his early adulthood.
#5: Spend free points. This gives 15 free skill ranks to distribute as the player wishes. However, no skill may be raised to more than 6 ranks with these points.[/note]
Origin
* 3 ranks
* Region of birth and early childhood
Upbringing
* 6 ranks
* Social status and youth
Background
* 9 ranks
* Learned profession and early adulthood
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
As said, it's just a first vague idea, but I think we could work from here. Perhaps it could even serve as a backbone for the campaign builder's system. I haven't decided yet on feats/talents, but I think each feat and talent should also be available in 3 "levels".

Must... think...  :idea:

Interesting. When I saw Trid20 I expected this was going to mean you had to roll 3 d20s for every roll instead of 1...This is way better than that  :D

I do like the whole sacred number motif, and 3 is a common one. But I don't think, in and of itself, it should be enough to define (or name a system). Ultimately, it's a gimmick. While I support incorporating such a theme, I think the system itself should be based around something of mechanical or thematic significance, rather than just coolness.

Also, if we are redefining stats in d20, "Wisdom" has always been a pet peeve of mine. Quantifying  mental capacity of character is questionable to begin with (try as we might, we really cannot play a character smarter than ourselves without reverting to the whole let's roll dice rather than think answer), and beyond that, breaking it into multiple categories seems further insult to injury.

I think Willpower a vastly superior, unambiguous replacement. I do strongly agree with Perception as a separate stat.

I'm curious about your Soul stats and what they will mean in-game.

I would like to see some more crunch before I form an opinion. Although I'm convinced that your going to get RPS style gameplay with it.

Ok, rewrote a bit, put some more descriptions into it, and gave a small example of how I imagine the system to work.

[spoiler=Tri20, v0.2]Attributes
Tri20 uses nine different attributes, arranged in groups of three called traits. The traits and their attributes are Body (Constitution, Dexterity, Strength), Mind (Intuition, Perception, Willpower), and Soul (Charisma, Inspiration, and Karma).

Body [BODY]
The Body trait represents your character's physical abilities. It encompasses his muscle, his stamina, his agility, his coordination, as well as the ability to use these traits for best effect.
Constitution [CON]
Constitution represents your character's stamina, agility, and body control. A high Constitution allows your character to exert a more defined control over his body, as well as keep going longer than others.
Dexterity [DEX]
Dexterity represents your character's manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination. A high Dexterity allows your character a higher accuracy with his attacks, as well as enables him to perform tasks with intricate gestures.
Strength [STR]
Strength represents your character's physical might and raw muscle. A high Strength allows your character to inflict more damaging physical attacks, as well as lift and carry more than weaker people.

Mind [MIND]
The Mind trait represents your character's mental abilities. It encompasses his resolve, his conviction, his reasoning, his awareness, as well as the ability to use these traits effectively.
Intuition [INT]
Intuition represents your character's instinct, subconscious thinking, and gut feeling. A high Intuition allows your character to work with incomplete or inaccurate information more reliably, as well as avoid being easily surprised and fooled.
Perception [PER]
Perception represents your character's awareness and sensual faculties. A high Perception allows your character to notice more and more minor details, as well as react to new situations more quickly.
Willpower [WIL]
Willpower represents your character's reasoning and mental resolve. A high Willpower allows your character to stand up to his conviction more readily, as well as understand and solve logical problems more quickly.

Soul [SOUL]
The Soul trait represents your character's ability that are by themselves neither physical nor mental. It encompasses his luck, his creativity, his unconventional thinking, as well as his social aptitude and personality.
Charisma [CHA]
Charisma represents your character's ability to get along with others, his strength of personality, and his attractiveness. A high Charisma allows your character to be a better people person, as well as gives him a more confident appearance.
Inspiration [INS]
Inspiration represents your character's creativity and spontaneity. A high Inspiration allows your character to reliably come up with unconventional ideas, as well as become a better artist than others who think in more confined ways.
Karma [KAR]
Karma represents your character's flair for society, luck, and ability to change situations in his favor. A high Karma allows your character to more easily get along with societies and cultures, as well as avoid bad situations or turn them to the better.



Skills
Skills in Tri20 are also arranged in groups called aptitudes. Each aptitude is associated with a trait. The aptitudes and their skills are Body (Acrobatics, Athletics, Close combat, Ranged combat, Sleight of hand, Stealth, Steer), Mind (Agriculture, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge, Medicine, Sabotage, Wilderness lore), and Soul (Administration, Arts, Command, Communication, Culture, Language, Subterfuge).

Body
The Body aptitude represents your character's physical skills. These skills require mostly high Body attributes to be used effectively.
Acrobatics [CON + CON + DEX]
Acrobatics represents your character's refined body control and ability for delicate movement. Typical uses include balancing, escaping from bonds, or tumbling.
Athletics [STR + STR + CON]
Athletics represents your character's ability for exhausting physical activities. Typical uses include climbing, swimming, or running for extended periods.
Close combat [STR + DEX + CON]
Close combat represents your character's weapon and defensive skills in melee. Typical uses include grappling, using a weapon, or blocking an attack with a shield.
Ranged combat [DEX + DEX + PER]
Ranged combat represents your character's weapon skills in ranged fights. Typical use includes firing a ranged weapon.
Sleight of hand [DEX + DEX + INS]
Sleight of hand represents your character's ability to perform tricks and other feats of legerdemain. Typical uses include picking someone's pocket, communicating a message with pantomime, or cheating at card games.
Stealth [CON + CON + PER]
Stealth represents your character's ability to stay unnoticed. Typical uses include hiding from someone, following a target without it noticing, or moving around unheard.
Steer [STR + STR + PER]
Steer represents your character's ability to use vehicles and other modes of movement other than his own. Typical uses include riding a mount, steering a carriage, or taking the helm of a ship.

Mind
The Mind aptitude represents your character's mental skills. These skills require mostly high Mind attributes to be used effectively.
Agriculture [INT + PER + PER]
Agriculture represents your character's ability to perform as a farmer or grower. Typical uses include animal husbandry, farming, or rearing animals.
Concentration [CON + WIL + WIL]
Concentration represents your character's focus and determination. Typical uses include blocking out distractions, focusing on an important task, or ignoring wound penalties.
Craft [INT + INT + WIL]
Craft represents your character's training in a certain trade. Typical uses include appraising items related to your craft, using your trade's tools to create an item, or making a duplicate or forgery of a related item.
Knowledge [INT + PER + WIL]
Knowledge represents your character's lore about a certain field of study. Typical uses include researching information in a library, examining a monster or item, or recalling information on a specific subject.
Medicine [INT + PER + PER]
Medicine represents your character's knowledge about physiology and healing. Typical uses include stabilize a dying person, tending for sick or injured people, or operating on someone to help him recover.
Sabotage [DEX + WIL + WIL]
Sabotage represents your character's skill with destroying or manipulating mechanical and other items. Typical uses include disarming a trap, opening a lock, or analyzing an object for weaknesses to exploit.
Wilderness lore [INT + INT + PER]
Wilderness lore represents your character's ability to get along in the wilderness. Typical uses include following tracks, navigating, and foraging.

Soul
The Soul aptitude represents your character's social and communicative skills. These skills require mostly high Soul attributes to be used effectively.
Administration [KAR + KAR + INT]
Administration represents your character's training related to law and authorities. Typical uses include navigating a city's bureaucracy, knowing the heraldic history of a certain knight, or successfully closing a trial.
Arts [INS + INS + KAR]
Arts represents your character's talent with a certain creating or performing art. Typical uses include performing on stage, knowing the tools of your art, or know details about another artist's work.
Command [CHA + INS + INS]
Command represents your character's leadership abilities. Typical uses include commanding troops, gaining an advantage in battle from using the terrain to your advantage, or rallying people on low morale.
Communication [CHA + INS + KAR]
Communication represents your character's talent to deal with other people. Typical uses include negotiating better prices with a merchant, intimidating a drunk brute, or collecting some gossip and rumors about someone.
Culture [INT + KAR + KAR]
Culture represents your character's knowledge about a certain culture. Typical uses include knowing the correct mannerisms at the table or in meetings, gaining small advantages when dealing with people from that culture, or blending in with the culture and not stand out as a foreigner.
Language [CHA + CHA + WIL]
Language represents your character's understanding of a certain language. Typical uses include hiding a foreign accent, trying to communicate difficult topics with limited language skills, or to convey a hidden message in an innocent sentence.
Subterfuge [CHA + CHA + KAR]
Subterfuge represents your character's ability to deceive others. Typical uses include disguising yourself as someone else, lying to somebody about a known subject, or feinting in combat.

Skill ranks
Your character can basically attempt any task in the Tri20 system. However, how much he is able to accomplish depends on the amount of skill ranks he has put into that skill. See table "skill ranks and proficiency" for details.
[table=Skill ranks and proficiency]
[tr][th]Number of ranks[/th][th]Degree of proficiency[/th][th]Benefits[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]0[/td][td]Untrained[/td][td]Can only achieve an action value of 1.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]Trained[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 2.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]Advanced[/td][td]May reroll the check once per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]Experienced[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 3.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]Professional[/td][td]May reroll the check twice per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]Expert[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 4.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]Specialist[/td][td]May reroll the check trice per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td][td]Master[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 5.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21[/td][td]Grandmaster[/td][td]May always take 10 on the check.[/td][/tr]
[/table]



Status
The Tri20 system does not use any point based mechanics to keep track of your character's condition. Instead there are three statuses that represent your character's current conditions. Each status has a normal level that shows the normal condition, and three levels giving increasing penalties as the status worsens.

Each status is associated with a trait and aptitude, and imposes its full penalty to skill and attribute checks related to that trait or aptitude, and half its penalty on all other skill and attribute checks.

Fatigue (MIND)
The Fatigue status represents your character's mental state. It worsens as your character keeps going without rest for a long time or suffers from certain attacks.
Fresh [-]
Fresh means your character is well rested and does not suffer from any fatigue.
Tired [-1]
Tired means your character has been awake for more than 12 hours, or suffers from an equal state of fatigue.
Weary [-2]
Weary means your character has been awake for more than 18 hours, or suffers from an equal state of fatigue.
Exhausted [-4]
Exhausted means your character has been awake for more than 24 hours, or suffers from an equal state of fatigue.

Focus (SOUL)
The Focus status represents your character's subconscious state. It worsens as your character is affected by certain magical effects or distracting attacks.
Focused [-]
Focused means your character is attentive and concentrated and does not suffer from any distractions or impairments.
Spent [-1]
Spent means your character is lightly distracted, or suffers from an equally distracting effect.
Drained [-2]
Drained means your character has a hard time to concentrate on an activity, or suffers from an equally distracting effect.
Enervated [-4]
Enervated means your character is barely able to concentrate on the task at hand, or suffers from an equally distracting effect.

Wounds (BODY)
The Wounds status represents your character's physical state. It worsens as your character is struck in combat or suffers from the effects of certain poisons or diseases.
Healthy [-]
Healthy means your character is not physically hurt and suffers from no disease or poison.
Injured [-1]
Injured means your character is lightly hurt (superficial wounds), or suffers from an equally dangerous disease or poison.
Wounded [-2]
Wounded means your character is severly hurt (serious but not lifethreatening wounds), or suffers from an equally dangerous disease or poison.
Disabled [-4]
Disabled means your character is critically hurt (deadly and lethal wounds), or suffers from an equally dangerous disease or poison.



Mechanics
The basic mechanic in the Tri20 system is similar to the basic d20 system. All rolls are made with a d20 to which the character's skill modifier is added. However, skills are calculated differently.

Each skill is a function of up to three attributes. These attributes' values are added together to get the skill modifier. This modifier is then added to the d20 result. The degree of possible success, however, is still dependent on the amount of skill ranks a character has (see "Skills", above).

The degree of a skill check is measured in the "action value" (AV). For every 5 points the result is above 5, your character has scored an AV of 1. [ic=Example]Gryk, a character with CON 4 and PER 3, tries to sneak past a guard. His Stealth skill has a modifier of +11 and he has 6 ranks in that skill. He rolls a 17 on the d20 and adds his skill modifier for a total result of 28. Gryk's result lies 4 full increments over 5, so he would have an AV of 4, which is limited to 3 due to his skill ranks.[/ic]

Opposed checks always compare the scored AV against each other, not the individual skill check result.[/spoiler]

Everything looks really interesting here - reminds me kind of White Wolf's with the 3 stats. Still, you've give this overall a very unique flavor. A few questions:

How does one buy ranks in a skill and what determines how many points you have to spend?

Also, with AVs, that seems like it would result in a lot more ties. How do you determine the winner if a tie occurs?

EDIT: I should really read more closely before asking questions - I found the answer to my skill related question. XD Hope I didn't overlook the AVs too.

Oh, btw, on further review I love that you can become fatigued in different ability catagories - that, to me, is a completely original idea, and has a lot of fun potential.

Quote from: EclipseEverything looks really interesting here - reminds me kind of White Wolf's with the 3 stats. Still, you've give this overall a very unique flavor. A few questions:

Cool, thanks! :D Keep the comments rolling. ;)

Quote from: EclipseHow does one buy ranks in a skill and what determines how many points you have to spend?

My current mechanic is that you get a fixed preallocated number of skill ranks at character creation based on your character's background, with some ranks to freely distribute as you like. This would not only make for realistic characters (unlike in DnD where a fighter as a member of the king's royal guard would hardly have a single rank in "Knowledge (royalty and nobility)"), but also eliminate certain "problematic" areas of character creation (also unlike DnD where it makes a distinctive difference if you have a rogue1/wizard1 or a wizard1/rogue1).

As for character advancement, I'm currently yet undecided. There are several possible mechanics that I find interesting:

#1: Quest based, similar to what Rocket Misfire introduced in this thread. A simple or short quest would give you 3 skill ranks, a moderately long or difficult quest would give you 6 skill ranks and 1 attribute increase, and a very long or hard quest would give you 9 skill ranks and 3 attribute increases. The ranks and increases could not be stacked onto a single skill or trait, but can be used to improve the property a single step at a time only. This would have the advantage that character improvement exclusively happens at the "speed of plot" and the GM can easily adjust character advancement. The drawback is that the players have no fixed mechanic on which they can count to advance their characters.

#2: XP based, similar to WoD or Shadowrun. This would have the advantage that it's a easy and fixed mechanic which makes things a little more managable and reliable for players while still keeping most things in GM control. However, one serious drawback is that it's yet another thing the designers have to balance out as a flawed XP cost calculation can either cripple characters or make advancement far too fast or cheap.

#3: Self-adjusting system, similar to TES3:Morrwind or TES4:Oblivion. This system's main advantage would be that ultimately, players have the full controll over what skills and abilities they advance when at which rate (probably the full contrast to #1). Alas, this not only makes character advancement an uncontrollable pain in the ass for the GM, it also opens up all sorts of abuse. Just think of the Elder Scrolls CRPG series, where you look for an NPC that doesn't move and turn around, sneak up on him from behind, lock down the space bar, and return a few hours later with Sneak maxed out.

Quote from: EclipseAlso, with AVs, that seems like it would result in a lot more ties. How do you determine the winner if a tie occurs?

Good question. To be honest, that's one thing I haven't really thought about. But it's sort of easy to solve, as there are multiple solutions to this problem:

#1: "There is no spoon... uhhh... tie". You just make repeated checks until you have a clear and definite result.

#2: You look at the other involved properties. The chain would go like this: AV -> total result -> ranks -> total modifier -> value of associated trait. This should sort of make a tie almost impossible.

#3: You rule that in case of a tie the PC always gets advantage over the NPC, and that the "active/acting" character always gets advantage over the "passive/reacting" character (or the other way round).

Quote from: EclipseEDIT: I should really read more closely before asking questions - I found the answer to my skill related question. XD Hope I didn't overlook the AVs too.

No worries. This whole system is still "under construction", and not everything is already mentioned. So don't hesitate to ask if something seems strange or incomplete to you.

One thing I'm quite proud of, is that this system allows to represent the "everybody can try stuff, but only those trained will be good at it" situations quite well. With an average attribute value of 3, all skills will have an average modifier of +9, guaranteeing an AV of 1 in all but dangerous/stressful situations. Everyone can "try" to ride a horse, everyone can "try" to shoot a bow, everyone can "try" to climb a tree, and so on, but only those who specialize in a field (read: put ranks into that skill) will be able to achieve the really impressive results (like make your mount jump over a burning fence, cut that rope with an arrow from 100ft away, or scale a cliff without aid).

Quote from: EclipseOh, btw, on further review I love that you can become fatigued in different ability catagories - that, to me, is a completely original idea, and has a lot of fun potential.

Thanks. I think the mechanic that these conditions sort of "bleed" into the other categories makes the system quite interesting. Eg, if you are "weary" (-2 penalty to all MIND skill and attribute checks) you also take a -1 penalty to all BODY and SOUL skill and attribute checks. Of course, this is completely without game testing right now and could turn out to be a real "maximum suck", but it's sort of realistic.

This has the additional boon that physical injuries automatically impair mental and spiritual abilities without requiring an additional mechanic, and that finally you could give out penalties for a character staying awake for a prolonged amount of time.

Having given the subject some further though, I have come to the following results.

#1: Regarding character advancement I'm strongly leaning towards a quest-based system. In the end, having the DM completely control the speed of character advancement directly makes the process not only easier and more intuitive (no need to track 5 digit numbers of XP any more), it also makes the story imho more enjoyable. After all, playing in a campaign is already requiring a hefty portion of trust between GM and players. Therefore, having the GM control the speed of the PCs' advancement is not too bad, especially as it allows for a more relaxed atmosphere without having the "numbers in your neck" all the time.

#2: Regarding ties I'm opting for a "advantage to the acting character". While the other alternatives are quite workable on their own, they either require more time (rerolling) or are too unwieldy (checking the other stats). On a tie having the acting character gain an advantage over the reacting character ("attacker > defender") makes the system quick and easy, while still allowing in many cases the PCs to get away with it.

#3: Regarding skills and action values, I've reworked the system a little.
[table=Skill ranks and proficiency]
[tr][th]Number of ranks[/th][th]Degree of proficiency[/th][th]Benefits[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]0[/td][td]Untrained[/td][td]Can only achieve an action value of 1.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]Trained[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 5.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]Advanced[/td][td]May reroll the check once per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]Experienced[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 10.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]Professional[/td][td]May reroll the check twice per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]Expert[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 15.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]Specialist[/td][td]May reroll the check trice per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td][td]Master[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 20.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21[/td][td]Grand master[/td][td]May always take 10 on the check.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24[/td][td]Arch master[/td][td]Can achieve an action value of up to 25.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27[/td][td]Champion[/td][td]May take 20 once per day.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30[/td][td]Incarnate[/td][td]Is no longer limited in the maximum action value achievable.[/td][/tr]
[/table]

The degree of a skill check is measured in the "action value" (AV). To determine a check's AV just take the total check result and substract 10 from it. [ic=Example]Gryk, a character with CON 4 and PER 3, tries to sneak past a guard. His Stealth skill has a modifier of +11 and he has 6 ranks in that skill. He rolls a 17 on the d20 and adds his skill modifier for a total result of 28. Thus his AV would be 28 - 10 = 18, which is limited to 10 due to his skill ranks.[/ic]

---

So, any further comments on the basics of the system? :)

QuoteMind [MIND]
The Mind trait represents your character's mental abilities. It encompasses his resolve, his conviction, his reasoning, his awareness, as well as the ability to use these traits effectively.
Intuition [INT]
Intuition represents your character's instinct, subconscious thinking, and gut feeling. A high Intuition allows your character to work with incomplete or inaccurate information more reliably, as well as avoid being easily surprised and fooled.
Perception [PER]
Perception represents your character's awareness and sensual faculties. A high Perception allows your character to notice more and more minor details, as well as react to new situations more quickly.
Willpower [WIL]
Willpower represents your character's reasoning and mental resolve. A high Willpower allows your character to stand up to his conviction more readily, as well as understand and solve logical problems more quickly.

Distribute 9 points among the character's ability categories and modify his subabilities accordingly. No ability category may be initially higher than 6 before racial modifiers.[/quote]Abilities in Tri20 are divided in three categories: Body, Mind, and Soul. Each category contains three subabilities, who can be modified from its basic value on a 1-to-1 basis and deviate from the basic value by at most 3 points.[/quote]The degree of a skill check is measured in the "action value" (AV). For every 5 points the result is above 5, your character has scored an AV of 1.

Opposed checks always compare the scored AV against each other, not the individual skill check result.[/quote]

I'm not sure I like the skill system.  I'm not sure why you're wanting to change the D20 system, but this system seems overly complicated.

You have very interesting ideas but they change the mechanics of the game almost 100%, and it's unclear whether some of the changes are needed or better.  I do really like the idea of the Abilities you have and the status system though.

Quote from: IvarIntuition and Perception seem too closely linked to me.  And Willpower doesn't mean reasoning to me, just the mental resolve aspect.  So there doesn't seem to be a clear "Reasoning" attribute in the mind category, which is one of the largest functions of the mind.  I'd combine perception and intuition, make Willpower the same as it is in standard d20, and make INT revert back to intelligence or REA (reasoning).

I'll just point you to Phoenix's post at the beginning of this thread. ;)

Quote from: IvarI do like the Soul attributes, but as always, it'll be interesting (difficult?) for them to have any actual in-game effect (especially inspiration), and thus, players are more likely to skimp on the Soul.  I mean who would trade in inspiration or even karma for more strength and Con?  A good roleplayer might, but beyond that...?

Oh, no worries. There will be ties with other attributes. Just take a look at the reworked skills associated with SOUL.

Quote from: IvarSo you only get 9 points to distribute intitially between all 9 Attributes?

No. You get to distribute 9 points between BODY, MIND, and SOUL. After that, you can increase and decrease individual attributes within a single trait on a 1-to-1 basis.
[ic=Example]Bob makes a new character. He decides to go for a warrior type. He assigns 4 points to BODY, 2 points to MIND, and 3 points to SOUL. This gives him:
BODY 4
- STR 4
- DEX 4
- CON 4
MIND 2
- INT 2
- PER 2
- WIL 2
SOUL 3
- CHA 3
- INS 3
- KAR 3
After that, he decides to modify his attributes. He increases STR to 6, but to compensate he has to reduce the other attributes by a total of 2 points, and decides to reduce DEX and CON to 3 each. He does not modify any MIND attributes, leaving them at a slightly below average value of 2. At last, he increases INS to 4 and reduces CHA to 2. His final attributes look like this:
BODY 4
- STR 6
- DEX 3
- CON 3
MIND 2
- INT 2
- PER 2
- WIL 2
SOUL 3
- CHA 2
- INS 4
- KAR 3[/ic]

Quote from: IvarHow will these Attribute scores reflect bonuses on non-skill actions, such as combat, casting, etc.?

Combat will be handled by skills, just check the reworked skill in the spoiler "Tri20, v0.2" above. ;) I'm currently undediced on casting, but it will most likely be handled by a combination of feats/talents and raw trait checks.

Quote from: IvarAlso, by lowering the average Attribute score (from say 10-12 in standard D&D to 1-3 in this system) you increase the importance of each point.

And this is bad? Well, perhaps I've had one situation too many where an ability increase did ZERO for my characters. In DnD odd ability scores are all but useless, you gain nothing from them. Yeah, "please try again in 4 levels". :-/

Quote from: IvarThis could create really unbalanced (in the sense that they aren't "normal") in that most players will stack only a few attributes and the other scores will be 0.

The minimum score will be 1. ;) Also, if a player really wants his character to have CHA 1 and WIL 1, he will suffer the consequences. Like only having the bare minimum ability to speak, for example. A character like this will talk like "me hungry", "me not go", "guards did bad stuff to other human", "humans with pointy ears did flashy things", etc. Or like a character with DEX 1 and PER 1 will not hit the broad side of a barn with a dagger - from like 10ft away.

It's like in DnD if you use point buy. Yes, having a base strength of 20 sounds great for a half-orc barbarian. If, however, the price to pay is Int, Wis, and Cha scores of 6 on the other hand, it suddenly doesn't look that hot, does it? (hint: ability damage ;) )

Quote from: IvarI'm unclear as to what the "basic value" is?

See the example above.

Quote from: IvarI'm not sure I like the skill system.  I'm not sure why you're wanting to change the D20 system, but this system seems overly complicated.

The skill system is distincly different from d20 - which is fully intended. And it's barely complicated at all. You only calculate the modifier of your skills once, without having to check for class/crossclass, trained/untrained, synergies, racial bonuses, etc pp. Any character can basically attempt anything. You then distribute some ranks between the skills you want to be good at. The table in my previous post shows how good you can be in a skill, what the maximum is you can attain when making a check.

Quote from: IvarYou have very interesting ideas but they change the mechanics of the game almost 100%, and it's unclear whether some of the changes are needed or better.  I do really like the idea of the Abilities you have and the status system though.

It's all somewhat "beta status" currently, but I hope I get some time to clear things up a little at the weekend.

Ok, got around to put most of what I currently have on Tri20 into a pdf. Please bear with me that it's not so neatly designed and layouted, but I think it's still readable. ;) :P

File: 1191684914_233_FT38991_tri20.pdf

Ok, here's an example of character creation. Let's say Alex want to make a character for a new campaign his GM is planning.

1. Develop concept
Alex wants to play a noble warrior, the lost son of a dying bloodline. The GM is cool with this concept, and so Alex begins to build his character.

2. Build traits
Alex has 12 points to distribute among the three traits. He decides to distributes his points as follows:
- Body 5
- Mind 3
- Soul 4

3. Modify attributes
Alex wants to play a dextrous warrior that relies more on cunning, wits, and charm than on pure force. After all is said and done, he has the following attributes:
- CON 3
- DEX 7
- STR 5
- INT 2
- PER 4
- WIL 3
- CHA 5
- INS 4
- KAR 3

4. Select origin
Alex wants his character to have spent his early childhood in the wilderness. He imagines his parents being on the way to a noble court, but the entourage is ambushed by monsters. His parents get killed, and he is saved by a hermit that coincidentally comes by the scene. Therefore, Alex selects the origin template "Wilderness" which gives him:
- Athletics 1
- Stealth 1
- Wilderness lore 1

5. Select upbringing
Alex's character grew up with the hermit that saved him, and because no matching template is in the list, he takes "Free man". Alex selects Wilderness lore as the most important skill he learned during his time with the hermit, but he also learned something about agriculture, using a bow, sneaking and hiding, and he got a good training.
- Agriculture 1
- Athletics 1
- Ranged combat (bow) 1
- Stealth 1
- Wilderness lore 2

6. Select background
After having spent his youth in the wilderness, Alex's character is told about his origins, and learns of his noble blood. He decides to return to his homeland and reclaim his title. Alex takes the template "noble (royal court)" to represent the experiences and problems his character had when he returned to the court and was met with all but doubt and hostility. But he finally got through, and learned the following skills:
- Command 2
- Communication 1
- Culture (homeland nobility) 2
- Language 1
- Subterfuge 3

7. Spend free ranks
Alex notices that his character has quite some wide ranging abilities, but wants to flesh out his character some more. For example, he imagines that his character picked up some close combat abilities when he returned, to be able to properly defend himself, or that he was trained in the courtly manners more than usual for a mere noble. Therefore, he spends his 15 free ranks like this:
- Administration 2
- Close combat (swords) 3
- Communication 2
- Culture (homeland nobility) 2
- Language 4
- Ranged combat (bows) 2

In total, his skills look like the following (skill, modifier, ranks):
- Acrobatics (+13)

- Athletics (+13) [2]
- Close  combat (swords) (+15) [3]
- Ranged  combat (bows) (+18) [3]
- Sleight of hand (+18)

- Stealth (+10) [2]
- Steer (+14)

- Agriculture (+10) [1]
- Concentration (+9)

- Craft (+7)

- Knowledge (+9)

- Medicine (+10)

- Sabotage (+13)

- Wilderness lore (+8) [3]

- Administration (+8) [2]
- Arts (+11)

- Command (+13) [2]
- Communication (+12) [3]
- Culture (homeland nobility) (+8) [4]
- Language (native tongue) (+13) [5]
- Subterfuge (+13) [3]

Le bump!

Any further comments/suggestions/questions? :huh:

im not sure if you covered this or its just that i could not find it but how do you determine how many skill points a character recieves at each level? And is it tied to one of the ability mods?

He's implementing exclusive use of "Quest Based Leveling", and the benefits you get are dependent apon what quest you perform. He has guidelines in the .PDF, but those are only guidelines.

It's like in LoZ:OoT. You get a dagger and a wooden board right away, then on your first quest you pick up some sticks, a bunch of flash!bangs and a slingshot. At the end of your first quest you get a shiny rock that activates the next quest, and a 33.3% increase in your toughness.

Quest Based Leveling: Cause XP grinding is a joke you laugh at while people play WoW.

Rocket Misfire is absolutely correct. I find quest-based advancement a highly intriguing concept, and tracking thousands of XP always bugged me. Either the campaign boils down to senseless grinding, you're one goblin short of gaining a level, or you have the "oopportunity" to decide making that important magic item but not advance a level instead.

Sigh...