The Campaign Builder's Guild

I need help deciding in which direction that I want to go with my role playing system and I figured that I would ask what everyone here thought was a better direction to go.
[spoiler=System 1]

Fencing I
XP to learn: 500
Requirements: None
The character learns that fighting with agility and speed is often better then using brute strength.
When using a short sword or rapier made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield or wear any type of armor its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Fencing II
XP to learn: 1,000
Requirements: Fencing I
The character learns to use his speed and agility, instead of armor, to defend himself from attack.
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent each round. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) as well as wearing any armor also makes you lose this dodge bonus. The dodge bonus increases by +1 for every two additional fencing techniques the character learns.  

Fencing III
XP to learn: 1,500
Requirements: Fencing I,II
The character learns precisely where to strike his targets to maximize their effect.
The character gains an extra 1d6 damage added to his normal damage roll. When using this ability the character can not attack with a weapon in his other hand, wear armor, or use a shield. This ability only works against creatures with discernible anatomies. The damage increases by a d6 for every three additional fencing technique the character learns.  

Fencing IV
XP to learn: 2,000
Requirements: Fencing I,II,III
The character gains additional attacks of opportunity equal to his Dexterity bonus. For example, a character with a Dexterity of 15 can make a total of three attacks of opportunity in 1 round'"the one attack of opportunity any character is entitled to, plus two more because of his +2 Dexterity bonus. You can still make only one attack of opportunity per opportunity. You may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Fencing V
XP to learn: 2,500
Requirements: Fencing I '" IV
The character gains the ability to move both before and after the attack, provided that the total distance moved is not greater than the characters base speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this technique if you are wearing armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of this technique.

Fencing VI
XP to learn: 3,000
Requirements: Fencing  I '" V
The character no longer provokes an attack of opportunity when he attempts to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent.

Fencing VII
XP to learn: 3,500
Requirements: Fencing  I '" VI
The character learns how to react quickly to any situation
The character gains a +3 competence bonus on Reflex saves. The character loses this bonus when wearing armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Fencing VIII
XP to learn: 4,000
Requirements: Fencing  I '" VII
The character gains the ability to sap his opponents strength with is his own attacks.
If you score a critical hit against a creature it also deals 2 points of Strength damage to the creature. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this effect. Any creatures that are immune to critical hits, protected by an item or ability that protects them from critical hits is also immune.

Fencing IX
XP to learn: 4,500
Requirements: I '" VIII
You can disarm an opponent, and then pluck the weapon from midair.
If you succeed in disarming an opponent and you have a free hand, you can grab the weapon yourself instead of letting it fall. If you can wield that weapon in one hand, you can immediately make a single attack with it, though you suffer the usual penalties for a second attack with an off-hand weapon.

Fencing X
XP to learn: 5,000
Requirements: I '" IX
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. When you use this technique you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other techniques, spells, or abilities
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=System 2]

Keep in mind that this is not a full listing for the Fencing Technique just enough of an idea to help you select which one is better.

In this system the character starts off with buying the base ability and then by spending more XP can increase his/her prowess. In order to gain the next higher ability the player must purchase the lower one. For example the character wants to use the training Foot work with a +2 modifier. He would first have to buy into the Fencing training for 500 XP, then he would have to buy Foot Work for 1000 XP, another 1000 XP to increase the modifier to +2.

Fencing
XP to learn: 500
The character learns that fighting with agility and speed is often better then using brute strength.
When using a short sword or rapier made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield or wear any type of armor its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls

Trainings

Foot work
The character learns to use his speed and agility, instead of armor, to defend himself from attack.
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent each round. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) as well as wearing any armor also makes you lose this dodge bonus. 1,000 XP

The Dodge increases to a +2    1000 XP
The Dodge increases to a +3   2000 XP
The Dodge increases to a +4   3000 XP
The Dodge increases to a +5   4000 XP

Run Through
The character learns precisely where to strike his targets to maximize their effect.
The character gains an extra 1d6 damage added to his normal damage roll. When using this ability the character can not attack with a weapon in his other hand, wear armor, or use a shield. This ability only works against creatures with discernible anatomies 1000 XP

The Run through Damage increases to 2D6      2000 XP
The Run through Damage increases to 3D6      4000 XP
The Run through Damage increases to 4D6      6000 XP
The Run through Damage increases to 5D6      8000 XP
The Run through Damage increases to 6D6      10,000 XP

Speed of thought
The character learns how to react quickly to any situation
The character gains a +1 competence bonus on Reflex saves. The character loses this bonus when wearing armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. 1000 XP

The competence bonus increases to +2   1000 XP
The competence bonus increases to +3   2000 XP
The competence bonus increases to +4   4000 XP
The competence bonus increases to +5   8000 XP


Disarm
The character no longer provokes an attack of opportunity when he attempts to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you.  500 XP

Gain a +1 to the Disarm check   2000 XP
Gain a +2 to the Disarm check   4000 XP
Gain a +3 to the Disarm check   6000 XP
Gain a +4 to the Disarm check   8000 XP
Gain a +5 to the Disarm check   10,000 XP

If you succeed in disarming an opponent and you have a free hand, you can grab the weapon yourself instead of letting it fall. If you can wield that weapon in one hand, you can immediately make a single attack with it, though you suffer the usual penalties for a second attack with an off-hand weapon. 5000 XP

[/spoiler]

Having not read your system, I'm going just off what's here.

Firstly, does everything in your system use XP as the purchase medium? If not, this is funky as all getout.

Second, I'd go for the second one, simply because the first is a stringing together of a whole mess of different feats that fit a loose theme, and would seem to be better in a synergistic, cooperative approach.

Third, might I suggest a third option? Instead of making it a linear progression, you assign a value to each one of the ones in the first setup, and make it so that they get more powerful with the number of other ones you have, and the requisite is any X number of fencing feats (or whatever you call them). Makes it so that you don't have to get ones you don't need, but still lets them build off one another.

Quote from: Stargate525Having not read your system, I'm going just off what's here.

Firstly, does everything in your system use XP as the purchase medium? If not, this is funky as all getout.

Yes XP is the purchase medium, eveything in my system can be bought with XP.

Quote from: Stargate525Third, might I suggest a third option? Instead of making it a linear progression, you assign a value to each one of the ones in the first setup, and make it so that they get more powerful with the number of other ones you have, and the requisite is any X number of fencing feats (or whatever you call them). Makes it so that you don't have to get ones you don't need, but still lets them build off one another.

can you go a little more into depth about this?

It would be alot like the draconic or celestial feat 'trees' in later D&D books.

For instance, let's say I turn fencing three into this system. It might be reworded to say something like this;

Fencing III
XP to learn: 1,500
Requirements: Any other Fencing feat
The character learns precisely where to strike his targets to maximize their effect.
The character gains an extra 1d6 damage to his damage roll for every Fencing feat he has. When using this ability the character can not attack...

yada yada yada. I bolded the important parts. This way, the character need only take one 'gateway' fencing feat, which has no other fencing feats as its prerequisite (I suggest what is currently fencing VII), then cherry pick the ones that he will find beneficial, while the ones he chose before continue to improve in power as he gains more feats in the tree.

Quote from: Stargate525It would be alot like the draconic or celestial feat 'trees' in later D&D books.

For instance, let's say I turn fencing three into this system. It might be reworded to say something like this;

Fencing III
XP to learn: 1,500
Requirements: Any other Fencing feat
The character learns precisely where to strike his targets to maximize their effect.
The character gains an extra 1d6 damage to his damage roll for every Fencing feat he has. When using this ability the character can not attack...

yada yada yada. I bolded the important parts. This way, the character need only take one 'gateway' fencing feat, which has no other fencing feats as its prerequisite (I suggest what is currently fencing VII), then cherry pick the ones that he will find beneficial, while the ones he chose before continue to improve in power as he gains more feats in the tree.

system 1 is somewhat like what you are talking about, or atleast has some of the elements of what you are talking about. it is an intersting suggestion... do you really think that the first system is a radom colletion of feats?  

Right now, I'm looking at, in order,

Weapon finesse
dodge
1d6 sneak attack
combat reflexes
spring attack
improved disarm
lightning reflexes
the rogue special ability (can't recall its name)
improved improved disarm (it's a neat little trick, by the way)
whirlwind attack

It's not completely random, and I can see what it is you're trying to do, but the order has me thrown off. What if I don't want to be able to disarm people, but want to get the whirlwind attack? I've just blown thousands of experience to get the one thing I need. Your sneak attack never increases, so it becomes relatively useless at higher levels. What I'm saying is that the order seems wonky to me, and that none of the abilities seem to build off of each other. With the method I proposed, there is a clear reason to get more feats in the group, as they make all of them better.

Personally I like the first system better, but that's probably because I prefer simplicity. I like the 3.5 system of feats where you maybe get 2-3 options per levelling up for feats but in generally something like say 'two handed fighting style' can be improved on rather than being a one shot kind of thing.

Quote from: Stargate525Right now, I'm looking at, in order,

Weapon finesse
dodge
1d6 sneak attack
combat reflexes
spring attack
improved disarm
lightning reflexes
the rogue special ability (can't recall its name)
improved improved disarm (it's a neat little trick, by the way)
whirlwind attack

It's not completely random, and I can see what it is you're trying to do, but the order has me thrown off. What if I don't want to be able to disarm people, but want to get the whirlwind attack? I've just blown thousands of experience to get the one thing I need. Your sneak attack never increases, so it becomes relatively useless at higher levels. What I'm saying is that the order seems wonky to me, and that none of the abilities seem to build off of each other. With the method I proposed, there is a clear reason to get more feats in the group, as they make all of them better.

I see where you are coming from and your suggestion does make a lot of sense. My only question is should every 'feat' have the same XP cost or should they be varied depended upon how powerful the ability is?

Quote from: TybaltPersonally I like the first system better, but that's probably because I prefer simplicity. I like the 3.5 system of feats where you maybe get 2-3 options per levelling up for feats but in generally something like say 'two handed fighting style' can be improved on rather than being a one shot kind of thing.

Thank you for your Vote.