The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: ~Kalin~Are we going to have attributes that power spellcasting?

Uhhmm, yes? Or do you aim for a system like Shadowrun2e, where attributes had ZERO influence on a character's abilities? :P

Quote from: ~Kalin~If so, we would have to limit the ways that attributes can be enhanced or the system would suffer from the same problem as the D&D magic system.

That's a whole different can of worms. You're mixing it a little up here - DnD magic's main problem is the fact that spellcasting power scales exponentially (each level grants more spells per day, with each spell having a greater impact, and each new spell being more powerful).

Having attributes empower spellcasting is no worse or better than having strength affect melee combat, or dexterity affect ranged combat. However, imho we need to take extra care that - if we include it at all - magic scales only on a linear base.

Quote from: ~Kalin~And im not saying that we shouldn't have social attributes but they are a little harder to describe accurately and what would the sub attributes be?

See my previous post as for the last part of your question. ;) One sub attribute for "offensive" use, one for "defensive" use, and one for "subconscious/instinctive" use. It makes sense (sort of) and fits nicely into a logical schema that goes well with the rest of the attributes.

QuoteThat's a whole different can of worms. You're mixing it a little up here - DnD magic's main problem is the fact that spellcasting power scales exponentially (each level grants more spells per day, with each spell having a greater impact, and each new spell being more powerful).

Having attributes empower spellcasting is no worse or better than having strength affect melee combat, or dexterity affect ranged combat. However, imho we need to take extra care that - if we include it at all - magic scales only on a linear base.

The problem i was refering to was that you could increase your ability score so much that it was almost impossible to save againsta spell, something that doesn't happen if you raise strength or dex just as high. But anyway we can discuss the magic system later.


Now correct me if im wrong? (my mind doesnt seem to want to work today), but we now have three attributes and 3 sub attributes for each:
Attribute: Body
Sub Attributes: Strength(Offense), Dexterity(Defense), Constitution(Resistance).

Attribute: Mind
Sub Attributes: Intelligence(Offense), Perception(Defense), Willpower(Resistance).

Attribute: Social?
Sub Attributes: Charm(Offense), Inspiration(defense), Intuition(Resistance).

Quote from: ~Kalin~The problem i was refering to was that you could increase your ability score so much that it was almost impossible to save againsta spell, something that doesn't happen if you raise strength or dex just as high. But anyway we can discuss the magic system later.

Indeed, that is a topic for a different thread. ;)

Quote from: ~Kalin~Now correct me if im wrong? (my mind doesnt seem to want to work today), but we now have three attributes and 3 sub attributes for each:
[...]

Basically yes, but I after some thought I would use different names for the categories:

"Offensive" -> "Power"
"Defensive" -> "Reaction"
"Resistance" -> "Endurance"

Alight now if no one has any objections to these attributes we can work on exactly how we want these attributes to work? Do we want them to tie in to the skill system? are we going to make it the same as D&D or different?

Quote from: ~Kalin~Alight now if no one has any objections to these attributes

Now that would be easy. Apparently, the only participants in this discussion are you, snakefing, and myself. :-/

Quote from: ~Kalin~we can work on exactly how we want these attributes to work? Do we want them to tie in to the skill system?

I would strongly suggest so. The only alternative system I do remember regarding the influence of attributes on skills would be Shadowrun 2e/3e. In that system, attributes set the improvement costs for skills depending on that attribute. Eg, if you had a high Str, all skills that were dependent on Str were cheaper to improve. While looking good in theory, practically this system was bad - very bad. It led to situations where guy A (a clumsy troll with moderate firearms skill == Dex 1 and Firearms 3) and guy B (an agile elf with moderate firearms skill == Dex 5 and Firearms 3) were equally competent shooters. x.

Therefore my suggestion would be to keep a direct influence from attributes on skills, and not some sort of indirect workaround.

Quote from: ~Kalin~are we going to make it the same as D&D or different?

Depends.

If the attributes range from 1(0) to X, we could make it so that the attribute caps the skill. Eg, if you have "Dex" 7 and "Acrobatics" 9 you'd only have an effective skill level of 7.

If the attributes range from -X to +X (with 0 being the human average), I can imagine it working like in DnD. Eg, if you have "Dex" +1 and "Acrobatics" 5, you'd have an effective skill level of 6.

However, these sorts of decisions are highly dependable if we use a single-die or a dice pool system. If we used a dice pool mechanic, we could eg make it so that the attribute determines the number of dice rolled, while the skill provides the bonus added to each die. Only the highest (or lowest, depending on mechanic ;) ) die would then count for the final result.

One thing we should determine quite early in design is if we want to be attributes or skills more important. This imho pretty much lays out a certain path we should then follow (with things like "what influence do attributes have on skills?" etc).

My vote would be for "skills >> attributes". :)

QuoteNow that would be easy. Apparently, the only participants in this discussion are you, snakefing, and myself.

However, these sorts of decisions are highly dependable if we use a single-die or a dice pool system. If we used a dice pool mechanic, we could eg make it so that the attribute determines the number of dice rolled, while the skill provides the bonus added to each die. Only the highest (or lowest, depending on mechanic  ) die would then count for the final result.
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My vote would be for "skills >> attributes".[/quote]
My vote as well.

Quote from: ~Kalin~Well it was supposed to be a subtle way of getting more people to join the discussion.

Ahhhh, I see. ;) Let's hope your tactic worked.

Quote from: ~Kalin~Im not that familiar with a dice pool system, care to elaborate a bit?

Think of any game from WhiteWolf (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Exalted, Scion, etc) or Shadowrun. These two are the most prominent examples of dice pool mechanics. The basics are quite easy: every time you roll more than one die for task resolution you're working with a dice pool system.

There are two major groups among dice pool systems:
#1 - you roll multiple dice but only the die showing the hightest/lowest result is accounted for and used in the calculation of the final result.
#2 - you roll multiple dice and every die beating a certain "difficulty" (which can be fixed - similar to the new World of Darkness or Shadowrun4e - or dynamic - similar to the old World of Darkness or Shadowrun 2e/3e) nets you one "success" (more successes are usually either required for difficult actions or grant you bonus damage/stunts/etc)

Quote from: ~Kalin~My vote as well.

I see, we agree on this. :)