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Death-The Importance of Endings

Started by LordVreeg, March 01, 2008, 12:52:16 PM

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Jharviss

I really like what LC said about the other methods of disabling a character.

The character in my campaign were recently defeated, but the opponents didn't kill them.  See, the campaign is a very anti-mage themed, so the players have become used to crushing and breaking the hands of everyone they capture so that they can't cast spells.  So, when they were captured, their hands were smashed in with a morningstar.  The players all cringed as I described (in perfectly gruesome detail) their hands being obliterated with the giant, spiked ball.  This disabled the captured party members pretty efficiently, but it also gave them a reason to really hate the enemy.

It was a beautiful moment.

SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Luminous CrayonI guess I think that death should stay, but in a different sort of way. My ideal system would be one where players are very fragile when they start taking damage, but the clever and cautious have a good chance to avoid it-- so there's definite incentive to keep your flesh intact, without making every combat a death sentence. Most player deaths ought to occur because of obviously foolish choices (not the "left door or right door" type of dilemma, or other randomness or carelessness), because they played long odds and lost (as sometimes happens), or because of a dramatic choice.
I think the idea that a character in games like D&D can soak incredible amounts of damage is at least in some way related to that fact that it's pretty much the only way to make players feel cool in the basic combat sequence (= roll to hit, static AC, subtract from HP).  "Oh look how many sword cuts and arrows I can endure!" is pretty much all you get to determine (I know people say that HP doesn't just represent actual physical damage, but somehow the example is still the same).  Avoiding attacks is wrapped up entirely in AC: dodging, parrying, the hit glancing off armor.  Aside from the occasional area attack which forces you to use Reflex you have no variety, and even Reflex is still the same problem: the system has already made your choice for you about how you deal with the attack.

There needs to be more to the initial attack than just "roll >> hit/miss".  Fortunately some systems actually give you a choice of how to defend yourself:
True20 has both Dodge and Parry defense, so you can actually know what sort of action you're taking and you can even specialize in one (I think).
Goodman Games is coming out with "Eldritch Role-playing", which has a system where instead of determining a hit directly with a roll you determine "potential (to) harm" and then the player chooses which of their "defense pools (of points)" they want to use to deflect the harm.
[Don't really know any more.]

Now I'm the type that likes to play superheroes (literally) so I don't mind the idea that you can be stabbed several times in the gut and still be fine.  But if there were a "your character is not super-tough" system that I was willing to try it would have to give me choices, as the battle was going, about exactly how I defended.  I wouldn't want a complete war game of choices (and personally it would still have to be cinematic), but something more than a single value.
I'm a muck-levelist, I like to see things from the bottom.

"No matter where you go, you will find stupid people."

LordVreeg

Quote from: JharvissI really like what LC said about the other methods of disabling a character.

The character in my campaign were recently defeated, but the opponents didn't kill them.  See, the campaign is a very anti-mage themed, so the players have become used to crushing and breaking the hands of everyone they capture so that they can't cast spells.  So, when they were captured, their hands were smashed in with a morningstar.  The players all cringed as I described (in perfectly gruesome detail) their hands being obliterated with the giant, spiked ball.  This disabled the captured party members pretty efficiently, but it also gave them a reason to really hate the enemy.

It was a beautiful moment.
So this is perfectly in keeping with what we were saying, that Death might happen sometimes, but it is better when it advances the plot or storyline, and means something.  You did a great job of advancing the stoyline this way without having to kill them gratuitously.
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

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Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Slapzilla

Death MUST be dramatic.  They are the PCs after all.  Death without drama is a PB&J without bread.

We all know that the lives of the PCs are dangerous.  Delving deep underground to uncover secrets best forgotten, or hacking their way through an undead army to smash it's heinous general... yes, yes, very dangerous.  Now, I'm a big believer in letting them walk into situations that they know can kill them and start the dice a-rollin'.  I also believe that running out of HP in a random battle sucks poop.

With so many ways to hamper the PCs, death is just so... lazy of the DM.  I try to fill the battle field with things both sides can use and/or get befuddled by.  Terrain and cover come up a lot as does range, line of sight and hide/move silent.  Drains, poisons, evervations, deafening the spellcasters, blinding the grunts, slowing the acrobatically inclined, etc.  There are so many other ways besides HP damage to screw with the lives of the PCs and still make them struggle and learn caution at the same time.

Me and one of my play buddies, each with 14th level characters, got killed by a single CR11 creature.  Our characters were geared to whomp on evil outsider types (demons and devils) and undead.  We encountered a Hill Giant wereboar Barbarian.  Not undead, outsider, or even evil for that matter.  We couldn't hurt this guy.  We had a group of fragiles we needed to protect, so we fought defensively and used up plenty of our protection magics, but a few natural 20s (the only way he could hit us) later, we were paste.  It sucked.  A year with these characters hot and heavy each week-poof!  Gone.  Sometimes crap happens, but to go out like that, after the time investment we put in, well the wind was out of our sails and we haven't played as a group in nearly two years.  Gotta be careful.  Remember, it IS a game.      
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