The Campaign Builder's Guild

i'm jumping my own post
(someone shoot me)
[blockquote =post jumping idiot (me)]There is somewhere we can go with this, I think Turin is onto something. it could be that that is how the Bardic magic started, that more cultured, higher-class talented children were not sent to dirty towers with creepy old men...they were sent to finishing school (or so to speak), and learned dancing, entertaining, the great songs and histories, the ways of the courts, and a little magic.
The times have changed, and the Bardic guilds have become more independent, fostering secret knowledge and alliances with some Old Families, but perhaps also the keepers of some Old Empire secrets entrusted to them, known only by their masters. And now, thety still take in aristocats for tutoring, while also testing the less fortunate for talent. The laughing fce of the Troubadours of the Old Families and the Rich on the outside, while desperately trying to maintain their independance in secret.[/blockquote][blockquote-blacksword]You know how horses are considered full-blooded (not sure about the proper term in English) if they can trace their lineage to one of four specific horses in the 19th century or so? Wizards could perhaps treat other wizards fully only if they could show a complete listing of their lineage back to a specific set of "original wizards" (presumably from the old Empire).[/blockquote]

Since we are possibly postulationg a similarity between the gifts of magic with the wizards and the bards, and since both might have roots that strech back into Empire and Early Empire...Might not the Fullblooded, Higher ranking Wizards have some relationship, hidden to the outside world, and played down, with the Bardic Tradition?  
Just tying some stuff together again, people can tell me I'm crazy...

Quote from: LordVreegThere is somewhere we can go with this, I think Turin is onto something.  it could be that that is how the Bardic magic started, that more cultured, higher-class talented children were not sent to dirty towers with creepy old men...they were sent to finishing school (or so to speak), and learned dancing, entertaining, the great songs and histories, the ways of the courts, and a little magic.
The times have changed, and the Bardic guilds have become more independent, fostering secret knowledge and alliances with some Old Families, but perhaps also the keepers of some Old Empire secrets entrusted to them, known only by their masters.  And now, thety still take in aristocats for tutoring, while also testing the less fortunate for talent.  The laughing fce of the Troubadours of the Old Families and the Rich on the outside, while desperately trying to maintain their independance in secret.

I like that alot. Bards are sorcerors in potentia that, instead of using mere force of will to cast their spells, have the knowledge and training needed to cast it subtly through their empire-taught mannerisms. This would make bards more common as low-level aristocracy than the traveling storytellers. Although it we take you're idea of them secretly taking in both rich and poor, the rich become the nobles and the poor become the wandering musicians, and all is well with the world.

Quote from: TúrinSo either we have to accept that there will be a very low number of sorcerers (perhaps it's not really that hard to control the talent if you have it, so a reasonable number can figure it out on their own) or we have to give sorcerers some kind of master-apprentice structure as well. Assuming we want to avoid wizards and sorcerers being completely indistinguishable we will have to think of some other difference. Perhaps sorcerers are more untamed/intuitive/chaotic making them more common outside the Empire, while wizards are more regularly seen within the Empire? If we take such a route, we may want to avoid making the wizard Empire-only and the sorcerer region-only, because of limiting player options.

Maybe wizards are the 'obi-wan recruits anakin' type of master-apprentice, and sorcerors are 'luke bugs yoda to death' type. You could easily draw the distinction between master choosing apprentice and apprentice choosing the master. And I seriously doubt that sorcerors would take as much pride in their lineage; to them the master only showed them how to control it.

Quote from: TúrinI like that a lot. Wizards would take great pride in their lineage, especially if it has a good reputation. A wizard might have a much higher rank among wizards even before having proven himself if he came from a lineage of accomplished wizards with good reputations (where lineage means not their family but the line of their master and their master's master, etc.).

You know how horses are considered full-blooded (not sure about the proper term in English) if they can trace their lineage to one of four specific horses in the 19th century or so? Wizards could perhaps treat other wizards fully only if they could show a complete listing of their lineage back to a specific set of "original wizards" (presumably from the old Empire).

I like this idea. It makes a wizard a kind of nobility unto itself, which is cool as heck. We might be able to tie specialist wizards into this as well, with each school of magic having one or two of those 'original' wizards. Whether that has any mechanical side-effects is of little importance, but specialists would be more likely to come from that particular line.

We will have to figure out why these wizards are so important. Were they guild leaders, just great wizards? Or maybe just a set of brothers who become famous in the old empire, and the lineage thing began as a way for wizards to ride in on the coattails of their successes.

Major bumpage, here. Have we officially settled on this issue? I'd like to know before I give any comments on it. If not, though, I might throw my 2cp in...

Tell you what, Throw your bit in the ring anyways.  It's not like we settled this.

I, for one, like the idea of ranged weapons more advanced then your basic longbow. Crossbows are nice, but I'd like to see some crude firearms, too. I'm looking at the worldwide average maybe being on the lower end of mid/mid, with the Empire having higher tech and magic then the rest of the world, and the "badlands" type areas having less of both. I also like the idea of tech and magic complimenting each other in the Empire (I'm imagining a toned-down version of an Eberron-esque tech-magic), and conflicting with each other out of the Empire (similar to Shadowrun's tech/magic relationship, although I'm imagining more along the lines of traditional LotR/Faerun fantasy).

I think that, from a setting-based perspective, it gives the world a realistic layer of complexity, and from a metagame perspective, it allows for a variety of types of adventures, ranging from Conan-esque (and/or post apocalyptic), to traditional, to Eberron-esque fantasy.

And again, I really like the idea of having some variety in ranged combat. Even if it's only in the Empire.

Quote from: Sdragon1984I, for one, like the idea of ranged weapons more advanced then your basic longbow. Crossbows are nice, but I'd like to see some crude firearms, too. I'm looking at the worldwide average maybe being on the lower end of mid/mid, with the Empire having higher tech and magic then the rest of the world, and the "badlands" type areas having less of both. I also like the idea of tech and magic complimenting each other in the Empire (I'm imagining a toned-down version of an Eberron-esque tech-magic), and conflicting with each other out of the Empire (similar to Shadowrun's tech/magic relationship, although I'm imagining more along the lines of traditional LotR/Faerun fantasy).

I think that, from a setting-based perspective, it gives the world a realistic layer of complexity, and from a metagame perspective, it allows for a variety of types of adventures, ranging from Conan-esque (and/or post apocalyptic), to traditional, to Eberron-esque fantasy.

And again, I really like the idea of having some variety in ranged combat. Even if it's only in the Empire.

Mmm... I don't know. I like the idea of firearms in general, but... I dunno.

I think I'd prefer it if we had more magical types of weapon in the Empire. You might be able to create a primitive gauss gun via electromagnetics (I'm sure there's a spell somewhere that lets you do that) or even primitive artillery and short-duration explosives (fireball, magic missile and delayed-blast-fireball wands). Perhaps there could be a particularly mysterious subsect (school?) of wizardry particularly focussed on this.

...

Actually, that raises a magic 'class question'. Are we going to retain wizards, bards, sorcerers etc? From looking over this thread there's a distinct 'yes', and... well, wizards seem to be the 'pure-taught' magi, sorcerers the 'talented but wild' magi, and bards the 'taught to use magic through imperial customs' magi. Amirite?

Quote from: WensleydaleI think I'd prefer it if we had more magical types of weapon in the Empire. You might be able to create a primitive gauss gun via electromagnetics (I'm sure there's a spell somewhere that lets you do that) or even primitive artillery and short-duration explosives (fireball, magic missile and delayed-blast-fireball wands).

Which is entirely fine by me. I don't really care whether the crude firearms are technological by nature, or if they're magical by nature. My major point was that I'd like to see some variety in ranged weaponry.

Personally I don't like guns and would prefer it to be a sidebar DM option, but discuss it more and see what everyone wants.

I'm also not a fan of guns. Makes things too... easy, I guess. With gunpowder, you open up a whole can of worms regarding player creativity...

Quote from: Stargate525I'm also not a fan of guns. Makes things too... easy, I guess. With gunpowder, you open up a whole can of worms regarding player creativity...

That was why I suggested a more magical point of view. I'd prefer no guns whatsoever, really... but I do like the idea of explosives and other magical weapons of war that are complex and meant to be handled extremely carefully - utility, really, like unfoldable boats, food/water purifiers, and perhaps wands and other magical artefacts.

Personally I have no problems with something like this in the Empire's arsenal (and possibly some of the city-states). I created it for Adveria, but if you want something magical and explosive it'll fit here as well.

Siege Weapons:
 

Fire cannons are a magically enhanced stone. Created in Delkun, the instructions were smuggled out of the country about 400 years ago. Cylindrical in shape, it is flat on one end and the other has a hole covered by a heavy door. The outside is covered in glowing red marks. A modified fireball spell has been drawn on the outside of the cylindrical stone. The cannon creates and shoots a stone ball surrounded in flame, there is a 10% chance that it will set a fire if it strikes a ship or other structure. It uses a canister filled with bat guano and sulfur loaded into the back of the cannon. One canister comes with a newly purchased cannon, and is already aligned to that cannon. Only one canister can be aligned to a cannon at a time. A fire cannon will only fire with a canister loaded that is aligned with it. It takes 24 hours to align a canister to a cannon. The fire cannon is a direct fire weapon; due to its size a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty to attack rolls when firing a fire cannon and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes up a space of 5 feet across and weighs 700 pounds.
Reload: Full-round action and DC 10 Strength check to pull open door. Two full-round actions and DC 10 Profession (siege engineer) check to pack canister. Full-round action to load canister into cannon. Full-round action and DC 10 Strength check to close door. Full-round action to fire. Normal rate of fire is one shot per six rounds.

[table=Ship Weapons]
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If anyone else has something in mind, feel free to post it. Anything to spark conversation.

A few ideas here, but first I have just got to get a couple of remarks out of my system. . .

"more cultured, higher-class talented children were not sent to dirty towers with creepy old men...they were sent to finishing school (or so to speak), and learned dancing, entertaining, the great songs and histories,"

In other words, instead of being taught by creepy old men in a one-on-one setting, they're taught by creepy young men in a dormitory setting. Very Greco-Roman. . . Of course they'd have to grow their hair long to distinguish them from the military academies. . .

Okay, anyway; when you have a group of people motivated by the pursuit of knowledge (for its own sake) rather than power they have a tendency to wind up learning things which 1) those who have power don't want them to know and 2) those who want power would like very much to learn - both of these latter groups also having a vested interest in keeping the knowledge exclusive. . . Proof of lineage under these circumstances is not so useful in showing that you know anything - you may have been a terrible student, and actual (useful) knowledge should readily be functionally demonstrable. Apostolic succession serves as a way of showing , prior to any chance of safely testing the assertion, that you are considered trustworthy - by someone known to have been held trustworthy, having been determined so by someone else known to be. . . . in short, after preliminary exchanges of secret "passwords," etc., strangers then can exchange credentials and quickly get down to business. I think wizards in the sort of socio-political environment described would have to be pretty secretive for their own safety and freedom of research.

This would make sorcery far more common - halfway decent ones would be easy for the powers that be to identify and "offer" employment contracts to, acquiring people with highly useful, specialized skills at a minimum of time/effort/cost investment to train. Further - if any likely causal factors/influences of magical ability and its expression can be determined and reproduced/applied within controllable sectors of the society/environment, then, unknown to the population at large, sorcerers probably occur far more frequently than nature would produce on its own. They may well be identified and monitored even before they are even aware of what they are. . .

{Damn, one paragraph and the Malenorian Empire in my own setting just got scary more dangerous as a world power. The fact that sorcery constitutes Arcane Treason provides powerful leverage when you want to create a secret government agency! Disappear and work for the Government or be soul-bound, executed and have your entire family sent to the salt mines. . . Gotta love a benevolent dictator!}

So you are saying that you would see arcane magic outlawed in the Empire? Or just looked down upon, and known wizards/sorcerers are watched by the Empire? Interesting.... actually I like this. It works well with the Divine power group. This works well in the Empire, but it will have to work differently in the rest of the world.

Do we keep the secret organization of wizards the apprentice/master relationship, keeping groups small enough to hide?

Not necessarily outlawed - but certainly e=watched and heavily proscribed. Wizards, in pursuit of knowledge, are likely to find out all kinds of things, not necessarily "arcane," which would cause them to be very, very careful about their activities and who they talk to about what. . . Some of them might also be inclined to believe that they have a responsibility to *do* something about what they discover, being among 2 particular minorities - those who know what's really going on, and those with significant and rather unique  power to actually effect change. . .

Sorcery on the other hand would be more common place and arise seemingly of its own. Sorcerers might have useful, and potent abilities, but little knowledge, making them much easier to control. I can easily see secret departments of a manipulative government actually employing covert means to try to deliberately create sorcerers. Think "Firestarter," "The Pretender," and countless sci-fi and anime plot-lines. . .

[blockquote=S&M]Sorcery on the other hand would be more common place and arise seemingly of its own. Sorcerers might have useful, and potent abilities, but little knowledge, making them much easier to control. I can easily see secret departments of a manipulative government actually employing covert means to try to deliberately create sorcerers. Think "Firestarter," "The Pretender," and countless sci-fi and anime plot-lines. . . [/blockquote]
Actually, we had been going in the direction of sorcery and the bardic magic being in the province of the collegium of the Bards, or a collection of collegiums, some of them secretly allies with old families, their elders hiding secrets from the first empire, very specifically maintaining their independence from the Empire.

Not saying the Empire cannot create/manipulate some of their own.  But the Bardic collegiums were postulated to be carefully seperate.