The Campaign Builder's Guild

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I am building a climactic encounter for my 18th level party (3.5, no house rules ... yeah, crazy eh?), a Great Wyrm Black Dragon (CR 22). It has Charm Reptiles (as charm monster, mass) 3 times per day. Mass Charm Monster lets you charm a number of creatures whose HD don't exceed twice your caster level (in this case a CL of 15), or one creature regardless of HD. It lasts 1 day/level, so it is safe to say this Black Dragon should have three beefy "animal companions".

First, Charm monster makes the creature friendly (specifically defined as "wishes you well: will chat, advise, offer limited help, and advocate"), but further use of diplomacy (which should work on animals since the Black Dragon can speak with animals with anything it has charmed) should allow the Dragon to make them helpful. What are the extents I should play with to be fair here (the dragon can hit the DC to make a friendly creature fanatical by epic rules, for example)?

Secondly, how many HD should I allow him to use to be fair? By the rules, as long as the creature could reliably fail the DC 24 Will save (which could be a lot of animals), the dragon could have it charmed. This could get excessive. Should I use the twice CL guideline (the dominate spells never had HD limitations either, which seems odd) from mass charm monster?

Combined with the Dragon's animal growth spell, I can make these three reptilian pets into fairly fair challenges. I don't want to go overboard here, so any help would be appreciated.

Or is Charm not meant to be a combat spell, and thus creatures gained through charms shouldn't be part of its CR?

It depends on the set up of the Dungeon. IMO, it'd be cool to have a multi-layered cave. At the end of each layer/level you could have the PCs fight a mini 'boss!' except instead of the Boss being a normal Goblin or what have you, let the Boss be a Dire Tyrannosaurs Rex or something freakishly cool like that!

if you're going for more of 'Here's the Dragon and his Reptile Friends' than I'd suggest 2 (or so) big guys (CR 14-ish) and a literal horde of little CR 1 Iguanas!

BTW, Happy (really early) 18th!

Happy 18th? Wait, what? I mean the PCs are 18, I'm not turning 18 ... did you read that wrong? Am I reading it wrong? Where am I? Where's my ring?

Oh, and the encounter is in the middle of a smoldering capitol city the PCs are there defending. They just killed a Huge Red Dragon (CR 18) who was lighting the city on fire. Dern "Tome of Battle" PCs killed the poor dragon in one round (War Master's Charge ...), actually brought it from 450 (max) hp to -101 ...

So, this encounter is going to make up for it. Here's how I expect it to go.

PCs use ring of communication to contact the city generals, asking where they're needed next. I ask for a listen check. Someone will succeed (the check is a formality), and the party will be informed they hear hissing, and a deep and slow rattle. Then I'll ask for someone's AC.

The reptiles are Titanic Warbeast "medium" Vipers, which gives them 26 HD and makes them CR 14. But the Dragon's cast Animal Growth, Improved Invisibility, Fly, Shield, Cat's Grace, and Haste on all of them (fly, haste, and improved invisibility will last the first 10 rounds of combat, the others are effectively permanent as they'll last 15 minutes). The dragon will circle far enough up that his move silently score of +40 will protect him, and he'll drop a few acid fogs around to make it hard for the PCs.

Someone will probably get poisoned (2d6 con, DC 29 Fort; yikes) ... I'm just mad that the titanic template doesn't give feats for the HD increase (I'll switch out Weapon Finesse for Snatch, since weapon finesse is useless). Once the snakes are almost done for, the dragon will swoop in (that is unless the one PC with a "see invisibility" item happens to notice the invisible dragon in his circle of darkness flying overhead ... heh.).

Oh, this is going to be fun. Heh.

OMG! i totally read that as 'I am building a climactic encounter for my 18th birthday party...'

I mentally dropped Level and added Birthday... Lol, sorry about that, finals must be getting to me...  :morons:  

EDIT:

Quote from: Kapn XeviatHere's how I expect it to go.

PCs use ring of communication to contact the city generals, asking where they're needed next. I ask for a listen check. Someone will succeed (the check is a formality), and the party will be informed they hear hissing, and a deep and slow rattle. Then I'll ask for someone's AC.

The reptiles are Titanic Warbeast "medium" Vipers, which gives them 26 HD and makes them CR 14. But the Dragon's cast Animal Growth, Improved Invisibility, Fly, Shield, Cat's Grace, and Haste on all of them (fly, haste, and improved invisibility will last the first 10 rounds of combat, the others are effectively permanent as they'll last 15 minutes). The dragon will circle far enough up that his move silently score of +40 will protect him, and he'll drop a few acid fogs around to make it hard for the PCs.

Someone will probably get poisoned (2d6 con, DC 29 Fort; yikes) ... I'm just mad that the titanic template doesn't give feats for the HD increase (I'll switch out Weapon Finesse for Snatch, since weapon finesse is useless). Once the snakes are almost done for, the dragon will swoop in (that is unless the one PC with a "see invisibility" item happens to notice the invisible dragon in his circle of darkness flying overhead ... heh.).

Oh, this is going to be fun. Heh.

That is... That is quite possibly the Awesome-est idea I have heard all day (actually all month, lol)!

You totally deserve this:

I'll take that award. Consider it sigged.

QuoteIt has Charm Reptiles (as charm monster, mass) 3 times per day. Mass Charm Monster lets you charm a number of creatures whose HD don't exceed twice your caster level (in this case a CL of 15), or one creature regardless of HD. It lasts 1 day/level,

absolutely disgusting.[/i]

Then again, as your example shows, any D&D dragon that's run by someone who utilizes its abilities with a little bit of forethought is a brutal challenge. If we're being objective about our fights, dragons should win and heroes should die in a majority of these fights.

I don't think that bookkeeping about the exact number of usable HD is required. I say you ought to throw reptiles at them until it's as awesome as you want it, and you should (probably) not exceed 1260 HD. With a flying, invisible, acid-generating megabeast overhead, the reptiles are probably going to be the least of your players' worries.

Uh, do your ToB-only players have the ability to deal with invisibility? I'm just asking, 'cause if not, this sounds like a recipe for a TPK.

Good luck with the fight. Ouch.

[blockquote=Meta-poster]Then again, as your example shows, any D&D dragon that's run by someone who utilizes its abilities with a little bit of forethought is a brutal challenge. If we're being objective about our fights, dragons should win and heroes should die in a majority of these fights.[/blockquote]
Word.

I think it might be a good idea to just ignore the mechanical text of the spell and treat them as additional monsters, using their CR as guidelines and rewarding XP for them. Then, going along with what Luminous said, just make them as awesome as you want.

I'm not sure what the intent was with the ability, but obviously the black dragon's reptile friends could vary greatly depending on how maniacal the dm running the dragon is, so I don't think the ability can be trusted, per se. It's kind of crap in my opinion that there's no guidelines given with the creature of what kind of animals to use.

And the CR system is wonky enough as it is. I agree with brainface. The fight sounds nasty enough without adding in free (i.e. not counted towards encounter level) enemies.

If you go several CRs under the dragon, you can tack on 2 minions and not up the EL that much. Boy, the 4e way sounds so much easier...

Quote from: PhoenixIf you go several CRs under the dragon, you can tack on 2 minions and not up the EL that much. Boy, the 4e way sounds so much easier...

Amen to that.

Everyone but one has some way of dealing with invisibility. One player has a stance that gives blindsense, and has an item that casts faerie fire. One player can get blindsight. One player can use see invisibility 3/day.

Additionally, I treat Invisibility as Hide in Plain Sight + +20 Hide. The dragon has a good hide modifier, but not so good as to be unseen when it moves fast or attacks.

It's going to be tough, but that's what I want. It's the second to last 3E game we'll be playing in the forseable future.

I'm going to go with the snakes because they're only CR 14 before the dragon's spells are in effect. The three snakes are an EL 17 encounter on their own, and an EL 17 encounter doesn't really modify the challenge of a CR 22 creature (and with the party being 18th level, they should walk over an EL 17 encounter anyway). It will mostly be used as a distraction, as the dragon won't be jumping in until the snakes are on their last .... leg ... that sounds weird.