The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Ra-TielWha? If a caster's daily reserve is only a "slight fraction" of his total power, what in all Nine Hells is his full power?  :huh:  "Mana points per week", or something? :P

well it's assuming a halfway intelligent caster; his daily reserve would be the total divided by the number of days it would take to gain back that total, perhaps a little more.

Quote from: Ra-TielIt's not viable because it heavily involves metagaming (How do the casters know they won't face a second, equally difficult encounter before rest?) or abuse of certain spells (most often spells like teleport to move to safety, or rope trick to create a save resting place on the fly), and disrupts the flow of the game. "Nova, rest, nova, rest, nova, ...".

Teleports can be traced, rope trick locks you in one place, ripe for an ambush. Even outside of game, there is no way to be certain that they won't be attacked later on unless the DM is being a complete idiot. Since I'm not an idiot DM, and I doubt you guys are, I don't see why I must tailor to the common denominator of imbecility that the rest of the world requires.  

Quote from: Ra-TielIt's not unique because it's been done to death with vancian casting and with psionics. Actually, psionic characters are just easier to design for going nova, while vancian casters (especially wizards) are still the undisputed masters of going nova (Time stop, Quicken Spell, greater metamagic rod of quicken, Sudden Quicken Spell, polymorph into a creature that gives you a second standard action per round, and so on and so forth).

Vancian casters don't exist in my setting, nor does psionics. I was referring to casters in general; fighters can't swing a sword twice as hard and be drained for the rest of the day, casters can.

Quote from: Ra-TielAnd you think that this is better in exactly what way? I don't know if you've played the older The Dark Eye computer games, but they used exactly this way.

I haven't played them, but it's better in that there's an extended penalty for unleashing this kind of stellar power, instead of them simply going to bed and solving the entire issue.

Quote from: Ra-TielOnce your casters were drained in battle, you had to rest several days (up to two weeks) to completely refresh their mana pool (*). Considering that at least the second game in the series had a limited ingame time (you had to finish the main quest within 2 ingame years or you automatically lost), you can imagine that this was not quite as interesting as it sounded.

Unless completely draining your casters was a regular thing, it sounds a lot like an incentive to actually think before you unleash your big guns on everything.

Quote from: Ra-TielUnder a slot-based system, I could imagine a system like this resembling a mechanic you want:
- You don't regain all your spell-slots after a full rest.
- Instead, you regain a spell slot after resting for a number of hours equal to the slot's level.
- You regain spell slots of different levels simultaneously (e.g. if you rest for 4 hours, you regain 4 level 1 slots, 2 level 2 slots, 1 level 3 slot, and 1 level 4 slot).
This requires some extended resting, without leaving the casters grounded for weeks at a time. Also, you can easily determine how many slots are regained by counting the full hours of uninterrupted rest.

However, you're not using spell-slots so this is out for you.

It's interesting for certain. Don't know how well it would work practically though.

Quote from: Ra-TielYou could follow a similar mechanic as they did with 4E and encounter powers. Encounter powers are (afaik) usable out of combat after taking a "short rest" (aka 5 minutes break).

:ill:
If I wanted that sorry excuse for magic I would have simply stripped 4e of its wizard. I don't want magic to turn into boring stuff, boring stuff, boring stuff, COMBAT!, boring stuff, etc.

Combat encounters, and really anything based on a per-encounter setup, seems to me like an arbitrary limitation, especially considering the wide divergence in exactly what an encounter is and how long it lasts. For example, you fight someone in room A, use up your encounter power, and immediately proceed into room B, where you use the power again fighting someone else. Elapsed time is measured in seconds. You're fighting a large Boss battle, and suddenly that power's not going to work again, even though the same amount of time elapsed, simple because you've arbitrarily encapsulated this bit as an 'encounter.'

Quote from: Stargate525well it's assuming a halfway intelligent caster; his daily reserve would be the total divided by the number of days it would take to gain back that total, perhaps a little more.

No, you misunderstood what I was asking. If the number of points available to a caster per day were only a part of his power, when can he bring to bear his full power against an enemy? After all, you're putting yourself into the "pro-nova" camp, so actually limiting a caster to only a fraction of his full power is an arbitrary restriction and contradicts your other statements.

Quote from: Stargate525Teleports can be traced, rope trick locks you in one place, ripe for an ambush. Even outside of game, there is no way to be certain that they won't be attacked later on unless the DM is being a complete idiot. Since I'm not an idiot DM, and I doubt you guys are, I don't see why I must tailor to the common denominator of imbecility that the rest of the world requires.  

Aka "the DM has to go out of his way and jump through a series of loops to get the game back on track". Suddenly he must give his NPCs new spells on the fly (perhaps in the middle of combat), or make an ambush appear out of thin air just when the party leaves the rope trick. That's not exactly what I call "good design".

Quote from: Stargate525Vancian casters don't exist in my setting, nor does psionics. I was referring to casters in general;

I was referring to casters in, well, d20 settings. :P

Quote from: Stargate525fighters can't swing a sword twice as hard and be drained for the rest of the day, casters can.

Oh, and what is a barbarian's rage, then?

Quote from: Stargate525I haven't played them, but it's better in that there's an extended penalty for unleashing this kind of stellar power, instead of them simply going to bed and solving the entire issue.

Stellar power? You really haven't played TDE! :D

Quote from: Stargate525Unless completely draining your casters was a regular thing, it sounds a lot like an incentive to actually think before you unleash your big guns on everything.

You had to do it. Repeatedly. Also, if you failed at casting a spell (TDE uses a skill based casting system; each spell is basically a separate skill and you must roll dice to increase a skill; if you failed at a casting check, you still lost like 1/2 the spell's cost).

Additionally, the ingame time limit only became obvious once you hit it. Which meant that you had to restart the whole game from the beginning if you wasted too much time with resting.

Quote from: Stargate525[...] Combat encounters, and really anything based on a per-encounter setup, seems to me like an arbitrary limitation, especially considering the wide divergence in exactly what an encounter is and how long it lasts.

And how is that different from "per day" abilities?

Quote from: Stargate525For example, you fight someone in room A, use up your encounter power, and immediately proceed into room B, where you use the power again fighting someone else. Elapsed time is measured in seconds. You're fighting a large Boss battle, and suddenly that power's not going to work again, even though the same amount of time elapsed, simple because you've arbitrarily encapsulated this bit as an 'encounter.'

For example, I have a class ability I can use 1/day. I regain that ability at midnight. I'm stuck in battle just before midnight, when I use my class ability. Then, 2 rounds later, midnight has passed and I can use my class ability again.

Despite being a "1/day" ability, I've used it twice in 3 rounds' time.

And your argument was what exactly?

QuoteNo, you misunderstood what I was asking. If the number of points available to a caster per day were only a part of his power, when can he bring to bear his full power against an enemy? After all, you're putting yourself into the "pro-nova" camp, so actually limiting a caster to only a fraction of his full power is an arbitrary restriction and contradicts your other statements.

I see. IN answer to the question you actually asked, he has access to all of them. If he actually USES that access, he won't recover from it for some time. He can bring his full power to bear whenever he wants (all his arcs), except that unless you're in special circumstances, that's going to be a Bad Idea(c).

QuoteAka "the DM has to go out of his way and jump through a series of loops to get the game back on track". Suddenly he must give his NPCs new spells on the fly (perhaps in the middle of combat), or make an ambush appear out of thin air just when the party leaves the rope trick. That's not exactly what I call "good design".

and the players spawned these abilities out of nowhere? The DM can and should have anticipated something like this if he had any inkling of the abilities of the players (which a good DM should have).

If players teleport out in the middle of a combat, good for them for actually thinking. The opponent, if it's smart, probably won't sit around waiting for them to come back. It'll resupply and reinforce.

Same thing for a rope trick. If the enemy sees them doing it, why in God's name wouldn't they lay ambush for them? Identifying a spell isn't terribly difficult. Even if they didn't, and did it in a cleared room, why haven't the remainder of the enemies reoccupied that room? Also, what's the point? the casters won't come back at full strength unless they were close to it already, the fighters gain a few hitpoints, and the cleric might be able to buff them up in safety.

You're right, bad design, but not on the part of the builder. Each spell you mentioned has a clear counter and Achilles heel, the fact that the Dm doesn't employ those weaknesses is his fault alone.  

QuoteOh, and what is a barbarian's rage, then?

Is a barbarian a fighter? :P

it's similar, but not quite the same. You can't destroy nearly as much with a barbarian's rage as you can with a well-executed nova.

QuoteYou had to do it. Repeatedly. Also, if you failed at casting a spell you still lost like 1/2 the spell's cost.

yeah, I'm not going to design it with that in mind. going nova would be an option viable only for 'oh shit' situations, Ideally.

QuoteAnd how is that different from "per day" abilities?

*blah blah blah*

And your argument was what exactly?

My argument was that per day abilities are at least measurable by some in-game effect, namely, they regenerate at a specific in-game time relative to (unless you've got really weird day cycles) the sun. With per-encounter abilities, your regeneration is wholly dependent upon an arbitrary, completely metagame boundary enforced for the sake of convenience.

Quote from: Stargate525I see. IN answer to the question you actually asked, he has access to all of them. If he actually USES that access, he won't recover from it for some time. He can bring his full power to bear whenever he wants (all his arcs), except that unless you're in special circumstances, that's going to be a Bad Idea(c).

So, the amount of points available daily is actually a caster's full power. Now what? Are they his full power or are they available daily? I hope you see the *cough*minor flaw*cough* gaping hole in your logic. ;)

Quote from: Stargate525and the players spawned these abilities out of nowhere? The DM can and should have anticipated something like this if he had any inkling of the abilities of the players (which a good DM should have).

You babysit each and every levelup your players have? Or do you tell them: "guys, you know which rulebooks you have access to, have fun levelling"?

Quote from: Stargate525If players teleport out in the middle of a combat, good for them for actually thinking. The opponent, if it's smart, probably won't sit around waiting for them to come back. It'll resupply and reinforce.

WHICH ENEMY? "Casters nova, then teleport to safety for resting."

Quote from: Stargate525Same thing for a rope trick. If the enemy sees them doing it, why in God's name wouldn't they lay ambush for them? Identifying a spell isn't terribly difficult. Even if they didn't, and did it in a cleared room, why haven't the remainder of the enemies reoccupied that room?

WHICH ENEMY? "Casters nova, then climb into a rope trick or magnificent mansion for resting."

Also, what about supposedly "dumb" monsters? Giants, undead, and the occasional white dragon are usually not considered the top entries on the food chain regarding Int or tactics.

Quote from: Stargate525Also, what's the point? the casters won't come back at full strength unless they were close to it already, the fighters gain a few hitpoints, and the cleric might be able to buff them up in safety.

You do know that there are already plenty of ways for a party to always start an encounter at full hitpoint strength? A wand of cure light wounds is only 750gp for on average 275 points of healing. A wand of lesser vigor is 750gp for 550 points of healing.

Quote from: Stargate525You're right, bad design, but not on the part of the builder. Each spell you mentioned has a clear counter and Achilles heel, the fact that the Dm doesn't employ those weaknesses is his fault alone.  

Too bad that using these spells basically forces the DM into metagaming the hell out of the situation.

Quote from: Stargate525Is a barbarian a fighter? :P

Irrelevant. Give the fighter 1/day feats and it's the same.

Quote from: Stargate525it's similar, but not quite the same. You can't destroy nearly as much with a barbarian's rage as you can with a well-executed nova.

Irrelevant. Nova is nova, no matter if executed by a caster or non-caster.

Quote from: Stargate525yeah, I'm not going to design it with that in mind. going nova would be an option viable only for 'oh shit' situations, Ideally.

And what exactly prevents regular TPKs from NPC casters? Because a party of adventurers bumping into a group of necromancers performing a ritual is basically an "oh shit" situation for the necros. Why shouldn't they all go nova and waste the PCs?

This is why going nova is bad design. It's only acceptable if PCs do it, because if NPCs do it the result is a TPK.

Quote from: Stargate525My argument was that per day abilities are at least measurable by some in-game effect, namely, they regenerate at a specific in-game time relative to (unless you've got really weird day cycles) the sun. With per-encounter abilities, your regeneration is wholly dependent upon an arbitrary, completely metagame boundary enforced for the sake of convenience.

Now? Well, the cleric of the moon god does that trick at midnight. The druid at dawn. The barbarian when he wakes up. The paladin at noon. All magic items of the party when the party has rested this day. What's specific about that?

QuoteSo, the amount of points available daily is actually a caster's full power. Now what? Are they his full power or are they available daily? I hope you see the *cough*minor flaw*cough* gaping hole in your logic. ;)

I'm saying that they could tap into their full power, but on a day-to-day usage ACTUALLY DOING SO would be stupid. It's exactly like hitpoints. You've got X number available to use, but you're not going to charge in and waste them all without a safe means of getting them back. Since the only way to get arcs back is resting...

QuoteYou babysit each and every levelup your players have? Or do you tell them: "guys, you know which rulebooks you have access to, have fun levelling"?

Somewhere between the two. I audit to make sure I don't get any surprises, and I'd hardly call a fifteen second glance through a character sheet babysitting.

QuoteWHICH ENEMY? "Casters nova, then teleport to safety for resting."

WHICH ENEMY? "Casters nova, then climb into a rope trick or magnificent mansion for resting."

Yes, so casters only nova at the very end of the dungeon? After the big boss fight? In which case they'd retreat and rest up anyway. If not, you're forgetting that after a nova the caster is not out for eight hours, he's out for days or weeks at a time.

So unless your rope trick or magnificent mansion can last a whole hell of a lot longer than a day, the caster is still screwed, and the rest of the party now lacks any arcane support whatsoever.

QuoteAlso, what about supposedly "dumb" monsters? Giants, undead, and the occasional white dragon are usually not considered the top entries on the food chain regarding Int or tactics.

With the exception of one, all giants have an INT of ten or higher, and in most cases, undead have a controller of significant intelligence to think 'oh God, someone's laying waste to the defenses of my lair, I SHOULD DO SOMETHING.' And the white dragon, by the time 'going nova' and retreating is actually a viable tactic, has a regular or higher than regular intelligence. Enough to think 'someone tried to kill me and escape; perhaps they'll try it again.'

The Hill giant is a bit dim. So let them nova on them, whatever. Like I said, it should be an option, as long as they're willing to forgo using spells for a week or two.

QuoteYou do know that there are already plenty of ways for a party to always start an encounter at full hitpoint strength? A wand of cure light wounds is only 750gp for on average 275 points of healing. A wand of lesser vigor is 750gp for 550 points of healing.

Oh joy. you're still got the caster issue.

QuoteToo bad that using these spells basically forces the DM into metagaming the hell out of the situation.

No, it forces him to do more than have monsters waiting in their lair for the PCs after taking four or five days to wade through their defenses. Lookit, monsters actually have brains; the ones in the next room aren't going to sit around while their buddies get hacked to bits.

QuoteIrrelevant. Give the fighter 1/day feats and it's the same.

Irrelevant. Nova is nova, no matter if executed by a caster or non-caster.

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

QuoteAnd what exactly prevents regular TPKs from NPC casters? Because a party of adventurers bumping into a group of necromancers performing a ritual is basically an "oh shit" situation for the necros. Why shouldn't they all go nova and waste the PCs?

This is why going nova is bad design. It's only acceptable if PCs do it, because if NPCs do it the result is a TPK.

I...

Good point.

QuoteNow? Well, the cleric of the moon god does that trick at midnight. The druid at dawn. The barbarian when he wakes up. The paladin at noon. All magic items of the party when the party has rested this day. What's specific about that?

It's at midnight every time. It's at dawn EVERY TIME. It doesn't arbitrarily reset whenever the 'encounter' is over. Players, acting completely in-game, can know exactly when they'll get that ability back. Not so for encounter abilities.