The Campaign Builder's Guild

A corollary to the "monsters are everywhere" dislike: I hate it when humanoid creatures "aren't people". "Kobolds and Goblins are vermin and multiply out of control so we have to kill them" is a meme that frankly just weirds me out. I don't want to feel like I need to wash my hands after playing D&D.

Now, if they're kobold bandits, then everything's fine. :)

[blockquote=Brainface]A corollary to the "monsters are everywhere" dislike: I hate it when humanoid creatures "aren't people". "Kobolds and Goblins are vermin and multiply out of control so we have to kill them" is a meme that frankly just weirds me out. I don't want to feel like I need to wash my hands after playing D&D.[/blockquote]
Oh, gods, totally agree.

I put that under my "I hate it when creatures are made Evil".

And how.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI put that under my "I hate it when creatures are made Evil".

Now that you say it, I can totally see how Tolkien was wrong. Making orcs and uruk-hai evil just for the sake of having a justification to have them slaughtered by the dozen by the heroes. I say, down with this stereotypical oppression of misunderstood races! :protest:

LotR would have been so much better if Lurtz would have been given an opportunity to express his feelings, and to talk about his bad childhood with his abusive stepfather. Instead, he was forced into the "villain" corner and soon thereafter killed by Aragorn. :P

;)

Can we, uh, not use elaborate strawman arguments in this thread, please? :yumm:

The thing about inherently evil creatures is that they're so hard to hate.  I mean, they're obviously no picnic, but when you are by your very nature designed for the murder and destruction of human beings it's neither shocking nor surprising to see you act like a monster.  It's why devils and demons in old D&D never really seemed that nasty to me.

Now take a sentient creature with no significant predisposition toward good or evil, and, offer them the choice.  If they choose villainy, when they had every opportunity to walk a higher path, that is evil.  Atrocities committed by a being with no capacity to choose otherwise are little more than horrid acts of nature.  The same acts committed by a free mind are abhorrent.

EDIT: Of course, sometimes there is something truly chilling about a clinical, remorseless monster.  The cenobites from Hellbound Heart scare me more than just about any other character in fiction (except maybe Meryl Streep's characters in Rendition and Manchurian Candidate), expressly because they are designed for torture, pure, exquisite and unending, and they're supposed to take pleasure in their work.  Gives me fucking nightmares...

I think Tolkien orcs are a slightly different story, since they were actually created as corrupted elves, by whatever lord of darkness created them (melkor or sauron, I forget).  I mean, they were essentially made to be evil, so I think it's fully justifiable to have an evil race in that particular situation.

And honestly, LotR was not meant to be a horror story, nor was it meant to be about the mooks. I mean, the easterlings and southrons both worked for Sauron, and they're human. The generic-ness of the background villains (I'm not going into the racism thing) to me is a product of the style of the writing and story.

Flat morality is often present in tales of heroism. And when we do explore the subject, it's about Saruman and Boromir and the lust for power.

It is one of the weaker aspects of his world, though.  :-|

Quote from: Ra-TielNow that you say it, I can totally see how Tolkien was wrong. Making orcs and uruk-hai evil just for the sake of having a justification to have them slaughtered by the dozen by the heroes. I say, down with this stereotypical oppression of misunderstood races! :protest:

LotR would have been so much better if Lurtz would have been given an opportunity to express his feelings, and to talk about his bad childhood with his abusive stepfather. Instead, he was forced into the "villain" corner and soon thereafter killed by Aragorn. :P

I don't understand your protest.  The objection I have is not for the existence of villains, but for the assigning of that role to an entire species and/or culture rather than to individuals individually.

I think he was joking about Lurtz...  x.

QuoteFlat morality is often present in tales of heroism.

supposed[/i] to kick their ass.  The easterlings and southrons were basically uruk hai with better complexions, and where's the fun in that? (Seriously fellas, allying with a giant frickin' eye hell-bent on the utter submission of the world of men?  It's like deciding to make out with a facehugger)  Gimme a battle between two men both with legitimate agendas; that way, if I pick a side it's because there was more than one side to choose from.

Whatever LotR was about, I don't really think it had much to say.

On the subject of one-dimensional bad-guys, how about the Matrix?  The lobby scene in the first movie has got to be one of the most gratuitous scenes of violence by a bunch of so-called "heroes" ever in the history of cinema.  I'd wager the security guards had no idea they were keeping house for the bad guys; they probably thought they were working for actual agents (you know, like the FBI).  So along come Keanu and Carrie, packing serious heat, and in a few minutes they slaughter dozens of hardworking, well-meaning family men.  Now that's heroism.

And that's my favourite scene in the movie...

But I liked The Matrix :(

Uh, and LotR

So did I, Phoenix.  So did I.

Quote from: PhoenixBut I liked The Matrix :(

Uh, and LotR

Oh.  I also.  Especially LotR.  But I'll be the first one to say, 'Nice place to read about but I wouldn't want to run a game there.'  
Having real heinous evil is great and motivating, but having whole races given over to it, less so. And it makes real evil less impressive and scary if the players run into it every time they turn around.