The Campaign Builder's Guild

I'm a sucker for efficient methods of categorization and I like this a lot.  It's intriguing to run the system backwards, making combinations of descriptors and thinking what the resulting magic system might be like.

Just saw your post Nomadic; apparently you posted at the same time as me... (slightly before, really).
I'm a bit unsure about the arbitrary-thing as well to be honest. But i think I'd let all mana magic fall under that category unless they also affect you in another way. (I have written that in the post now, next to arbitrary as well, unless somebody disagrees)
Not sure how to clarify the power section more?
And Polycarp!, I'm with you on the "efficient methods of categorization". If that wasn't apparent from this thread :-p
And good idea with the backwards engineering. I think I'm done with magic unfortunately, but could be fun if i ever get some free time to mess around with it :D

I think this works really well as a standard, but some of the categories need to be cleaned up a bit to make the whole thing easier to read. At least in my opinion.

For instance, my addition of the word "Easy" to the learning category doesn't fit. Though "controlled" is the same sort of word. What if the summary always ended with the word "magic" as the noun, and thus made all of the other words adjectives which described the noun.

Art -> Learned
Inborn -> Inborn
Controlled -> Trained
Chosen -> Removed, as it is covered by rarity.
Easy -> Removed, as I feel it does not reflect the nature of learning the magic as well as "Learned"
Add: Impracticable: This magic cannot be learned by mortals.

This means, without any other categories, the summary looks like:
Jedi: Trained Magic
Marut: Inborn Magic
Wizardry (4E): Learned Magic
Wizardry (LotR): Impracticable Magic

I'll get back to "limit" in a sec.

For casting, I see some nouns...
Ritual -> Ritualistic
Focus -> Focused
Implement -> Materialistic

Example:
Harry Potter: Verbal/Materialistic, Trained Magic

Sources...
Unknown -> Mysterious (The magic isn't "unknown" so it reads poorly)
"Material" needs a clearer definition.
"Pact" might deserve a change, but I love the word.

Example:
Clerics (4E): Divine, Varied, Trained* Magic
* - I think

IMHO, effects should be moved up to right in front of the noun (magic), to give them more flexibility. This means you can have "electricity magic" or "electrical magic."

Example:
Telepathy: Internal, Focused, Trained, Mental Magic

Power:
Low -> Weak
Limited -> Formidable
High -> Mighty
Unlimited -> Miraculous

Frequency:
Anomaly -> Anomalous

As for limits, I think that any form of magic that actually has an important limit, one can add " limited by ____" after the word "magic."

Example:
Male Aes Sedai: Rare, Mighty, Pervasive, Focused, Trained, Universal Magic, limited by Sanity

Any thoughts?

Here's my variation on it using a combination of the primary idea and other ideas put forward (as well as some of my own thoughts). I think we can make this work, just run it through drafts till all the required stuff is handled.

[ic]
FREQUENCY
Anomalous: Almost everyone goes their whole life without seeing this magic.
Legendary: This magic in only seen by those who associate with the arcane.
Rare: Common folk believe in this magic, but don't see it enough to really understand it.
Infrequent: This magic is present, but unusual.
Common: This magic is present all across the realm.
Ubiquitous: It is rare to find instances where this magic is not manifest.

POWER
Low: Magic can't do much.
Mid: Magic is limited in power.
High: Magic is limited in power but that limit is quite high.
Epic: Magic can do anything with enough skill.

EFFECT
Universal: Magic can produce many different results.
Alteration: Magic involves the manipulation of the body into another shape or form.
Conjuration: Magic involves the summoning or creation of items and beings.
Divination: Magic involves the uncovering of hidden creatures, items, and facts.
Druidic: Magic involves influencing nature.
Elemental: Magic involves the manipulation of the base elements.
Life: Magic involves the control of life to heal, harm, or raise a creature from the dead.
Mental: Magic can influence thoughts and the brain.
Telekinetic: Magic involves the moving and manipulation of objects with the mind.

SOURCE
Pervasive: The magical energy is everywhere.
Internal: The magical force is within creatures.
Pact: You gain your magical powers through pacts or alliances with magical creatures.
Dimensional: You can draw magic in from another plane.
Material: Magical energy is drawn from physical objects.
Mysterious: The source of the magic is either not understood or completely unknown.
Divine: Magical power is gained from faith in or allegiance to a divine being or concept.

CASTING
Implement: You can only work magic through the use of a magical implement.
Verbal: Magic involves magical words.
Runic: Magic involves inscribing magical signs or symbols.
Somatic: Magic involves specific movements and gestures.
Focus: You can activate your magic by concentrating mentally.
Ritual: Magic requires long and complicated rituals.
Spontaneous: you are unable to control your magic.
Varied: Magic is cast in different ways depending on circumstances.

LIMIT
Unrestrained: This magic can be used without restriction.
Sanity: This magic slowly drives the user insane.
Lifeforce: This magic ages the caster prematurely or otherwise permanently drains their body.
Strength: Using this magic has a physical toll, like strenuous exercise.
Mental: This magic requires intense mental focus that strains the user's mind.
Arbitrary: This magic ceases to work if used too often.
Transformation: This magic slowly turns the user into something else.

LEARNING
Learned: Magic involves intense study and training.
Inborn: Individuals are born with natural capabilities for magic.
Controlled: Users are taught how to control their inborn magic.
Impracticable: Magic cannot be cast by mortals.
[/ic]

Examples:
Jedi = Legendary Epic-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Unrestrained Controlled Magic
Wizard[3.5e] = Infrequent High-Powered Universal Pervasive Varied Unrestrained Learned Magic
Drakyd = Common Mid-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Arbitrary Learned Magic

I would argue that 3.5e wizards are actually arbitrarily restrained, what with the spells-per-day.

True, I was just basing it off the OP's example though. Anyhow, thoughts on the list I put up. Anyone see anything missing that they could add, or things that don't need to be there, etc?

QuotePOWER
Low: Magic can't do much.
Mid: Magic is limited in power.
High: Magic is limited in power but that limit is quite high.
Epic: Magic can do anything with enough skill.

what[/i]?"

Actually, just copy Raelifin's post again, that might as well be my opinion.  Clean-up by making the nouns adjectives, moving "effects" to the end, and so on.

To be honest all I see in changing low and high to weak and strong is just changing words. Exact same meanings. So if you have problems with one you are going to have problems with the other (to be honest I doubt you are going to have problems).

The nouns to adjectives is a whoops on my part. If you notice my examples you will see I actually did it. I just forgot to do it in the system itself.

Quote from: RaelifinI would argue that 3.5e wizards are actually arbitrarily restrained, what with the spells-per-day.

"Arbitrary" probably isn't a very good descriptor.  First of all, it's not clear what it means - ceases to work permanently, or just exhausted for the day?  Secondly, it's too all-encompassing - if you define it the way you have, all vancian and mana-based systems are "arbitrary."  Since we're talking game systems here, it's all arbitrary in a sense.  You could say that 3.5 wizard magic is "arbitrary" if you don't buy the vancian system, or "mental" if spell slots make sense to you as a means to simulate mental exhaustion, or "unrestrained" depending on what you mean by "limit" in the first place.

Quote from: NomadicTo be honest all I see in changing low and high to weak and strong is just changing words. Exact same meanings.

Yes, it is just words, but it makes it easier to read, especially for people who haven't read this thread.  "Low" will make a person wonder "low what?" Low availability, low power, low frequency, low drawbacks?  "Weak" is fairly self-explanatory and probably won't need further clarification to people who are seeing the system for the first time.

Notice my examples (again remember I didn't add everything in like I should of).

Quote from:  Legendary Epic-[bPowered[/b] Universal Pervasive Focused Unrestrained Controlled Magic
Wizard[3.5e] = Infrequent High-Powered Universal Pervasive Varied Unrestrained Learned Magic
Drakyd = Common Mid-Powered Universal Pervasive Focused Arbitrary Learned Magic

shouldn't be any confusion there what it means.

Fiendspawn's magic is supposed to be a universal high-powered anomaly, with a variety of sources, castings, limits and learnings. As far as I can tell right now, Pervasive is the only non-applicable source of magic in Fiendspawn.

Also, I'm behind the idea of including Favor to the list of limitations; as it is, I don't see any first-post limitations that would describe a Defiler from Athas.

While I understand that you are using the word "mana" to express the idea of a depleteable resource such as seen in many crpgs, I'd question it being arbitrary (though I can see how Niven's use of it as a finite resource might but interpreted this way).

The word mana (Polynesian) means life force, the same as prana (Indian), qi/chi (Chinese), ki (Japanese), numen or ichor (Greco-Roman), and so forth. The distinction between mana, and say qi, is that mana might be present in objects, and I don't think qi or prana usually is.

Edit: The point being that using magic in a system based on the real concept of mana/prana/ki means that using it will deplete your life force, though in theory you might recover it in time. For example, in Indian thought, chakras draw in energy.

I'm also not fond of "druidic" as a description for all animistic natural magic.

I guess I'm wondering also, why you wanted to do all this? Anyone writing for a game system is either going to use the existing system (possibly with minor tweaks), or else write their own. In writing their own, they're probably coming up with something they feel is unique, and therefore fitting into neat little descriptive categories may sell it short.

For someone writing for writing, game mechanics do not constrain the setting, so a categorized description becomes even more limiting.

I get the idea for a setting summary to tell us if we want to read something. But is a magic system summary really going to serve a similar purpose?

Nevertheless, I'll try to apply the system to Eschaton to see how it holds up:

Anomaly high universal internal (or pervasive depending on whether white or black magic) focus (or ritual) life force (but not permanently, also with aspects of sanity or transformation, kind of, possibly headache/strength), controlled.

While, I'm not sure that simplifies things much--it feels like almost every category needs a bit of explanation or the labels are misleading.

I definitely think the Limit may need some work. Perhaps simply a "draining" category might be better--to represent the physical and mental fatigue it causes (whether by loss of mana or some other non-specified effect).

Quote from: PhoenixWhile I understand that you are using the word "mana" to express the idea of a depleteable resource such as seen in many crpgs, I'd question it being arbitrary (though I can see how Niven's use of it as a finite resource might but interpreted this way).

And that's my point, any system can or cannot be arbitrary depending on the observer, particularly because of the negative connotations of "arbitrary."  You run the risk of having "arbitrary" be a stand-in for "a magic system that doesn't make sense to me."