The Campaign Builder's Guild

:blah:
I hate to be a one-note band... but for fantasy gaming there's no better system out there than 2d edition Rolemaster.  As a DM, you have to do a LOT of work up front to make it worth it, because Rolemaster rules need to be customized.  But once you've got it down it is one of the most realistic and balanced systems I've ever played, and it just flows.

It's a class and level system, but the difference between levels is downplayed, and the classes are "guidelines" only (except for spell using classes).  It's purely skill-based (again with the exception of the magic system).

Rolemaster.  There's no substitute.
 :soap:

Quote from: ScMpI'm a little confused on something: Do you hate d20 because it uses a certain die type, or because you associate it with class-and-level systems?

To whom are you addressing this question?

I've been studying some GURPS lately and am pretty intrigued by what I'm seeing.  Any of you have a lot of experience with the system?

Quote from: Luminous Crayon

Quote from: ScMpI'm a little confused on something: Do you hate d20 because it uses a certain die type, or because you associate it with class-and-level systems?

You.

Just to throw it out there, Unhallowed Metropolis is pretty neat, although probably also not what you're looking for.
It's somewhat setting-specific for a victorian alternative-history undead-plague setting (which is extremely cool). The rules can rather easily be modified to your general fantasy needs, which is what i've done for my current game, although the Callings (classes-but-not-quite) are rather setting specific (and optional, luckily). Me modifying them might just be because i don't have that many different rule sets, though...
Basically, i will recommend it to anyone but you :D

Ish - I haven't played GURPS, although I'm going to re-tool Panisadore to run in it. I *have* played what was essentially the alpha test version back in the early 80's - "The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth" under the Metagaming imprint. When I started exploring GURPS around '02 I was surprised - it seemed so familiar. I had forgotten that Steve Jackson wrote TFT:ItL. ZTHe former needed a lot of modification (way too simplified) and most of what I had done GURPS also did - some in the same manner, some problems clearly addressed but in a different fashion. As classless, skill based systems go I think it's unparalleled, but definitely requires careful winnowing of options as you define your game/setting specifics. (It looks like 4e has cleaned up some potential broken combos.) If nothing else, it can simply offer an overwhelming amount of options which don't always mesh well. (Think of D20 Modern elements someone might want to incorporate into a DnD game.) I'm sufficiently familiar with the system basis (having alpha-tested the hell out of it) and know many whose opinions I trust that swear by it, so I'm comfortable recommending it prior to GMing the current system. (BTW - Amazon prices on this are unbeatable; I just ordered the current Basic Set pair for $48 and change w/the free shipping as opposed to $75 list for both.) I've read a lot of statements that it's overly krunchy; I don't think so much since all the Krunchberries conform to the basic pattern - there's just a huge variety of krunchberries to choose from. Once understand the basic system it's not so bad, you're not having to incorporate a lot of complex subsystem rule sets, just a few tweaks to the basis if you add on a specific, expansive overlay. Even that I think has been improved in 4e.

I read over the window and I found it very interesting.  I think I may try it out sooner or later

It does seem a bit non-concrete, but it is way simpler than d20 where they basically came up with a rule for everything ever.

[blockquote=S&M]Ish - I haven't played GURPS, although I'm going to re-tool Panisadore to run in it. I *have* played what was essentially the alpha test version back in the early 80's - "The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth" under the Metagaming imprint. When I started exploring GURPS around '02 I was surprised - it seemed so familiar. I had forgotten that Steve Jackson wrote TFT:[/blockquote]
Melee and Wizard were the rule books, if I remember, under the line of 'Microquest' games.  I also played them early on, with 4th edition Tunnells and Trolls.

I had already gone skill based by the time GURPS was released, and I like a number of the things Jackson has done.  He  and I both have similar ideas, but his skills allow the attributes of the character to produce and untrained level, whereas I uses stats to mitigate the speed in which a character learns.
And that was my biggest complaint, in that in his attempt to get totally away from class-based, he does not adress well (in my mind) the dificulty in finding a skill or a teacher of a skill, or what skills are needed to learn other skills.  He does rate the skills in order of difficulty, but this is a pretty simple mechanism.
I also am not a fan of the freeform advancement technique, and I like to see characters to only gain experience in skills they use.

I love GURPS for the freedom it gives you in creating and adapting settings and games.  Unlike D&D and most others, this system sort of allows GM's to breaks Vreeks 2nd commandment, 'The System follows the Game, the system should never overrule the setting', due to the tremndous flexibility.

Quote from: IshmaylAny of you have a lot of experience with the system?

Me!

What I like about GURPS is its tremendous openendedness and flexiblity. What I dislike about GURPS is its tremendous openendedness and flexibility.

While I was learning the system, I was trying to convert some of my favorite characters from past adventures into GURPS characters... I had to post several times on the GURPS forum and get advice as to what combination of powers and such would best reflect their abilities. There was something sort of mathematical to it, and it felt like I was playing an intense munchkinesque game of minmaxing when all I was really trying to do was create a character with a certain combination of powers.

That's what's both interesting and maddening about GURPS. I must heartily agree with Vreegs 2nd commandment...

Talk about resurrecting a dead thread. I remember reading about the window when this thread came up, what two years ago now? I felt a resounding "eh" about it. Neat ideas, but so basic in execution it didn't do much for me.

As always, I recommend the Riddle of Steel. Also Shadowrun and the Burning Wheel are great. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has its merits (and its demerits; also, it's class, but not level based).

D6!  D6!  D6!

Weren't there kind of 'core' books released for different genres of D6 a couple years ago?  

GURPS was kind of cool.

IS there such a thing as  Riddle of Steel LITE (or free) version I could try out?

Quote from: IshmaylIS there such a thing as  Riddle of Steel LITE (or free) version I could try out?

There were some quick start rules at some point, yeah, I think so. As to where...? I could look around a bit.

But admittedly the standard combat rules are pretty complex, at least until you get used to them, since they try to create a more realistic simulation of medieval martial arts (the only system ARMA sanctions as succeeding, btw).

@LV: They were - ITL was essentially the DMG for the system. He even put out a few Setting splats and 3 solo dungeons - these latter were in the mini booklet format (in little plastic boxed which Melee and Wizard were both released in minimal introductory forms under the product line you mention - with a pair of the tiniest d6 made at the time inside.) Metagaming "books" were magazine size glossy covers over newsprint for the most part - cheap ass games long before Cheap Ass Games.
[blockquote[LV]but his skills allow the attributes of the character to produce and untrained level, whereas I uses stats to mitigate the speed in which a character learns.
And that was my biggest complaint, in that in his attempt to get totally away from class-based, he does not address well (in my mind) the dificulty in finding a skill or a teacher of a skill, or what skills are needed to learn other skills. He does rate the skills in order of difficulty, but this is a pretty simple mechanism.
I also am not a fan of the freeform advancement technique, and I like to see characters to only gain experience in skills they use.[/blockquote]
While I like the levelless advancement (similar to Shadowrun's karma among others) I agree about the complete openness of "XP spending" - this was behind my question regarding Celtrician Guild School curricula the other night. I think the Universal aspect kind of rules out the system presenting such, but clearer "skill trees" along the lines of the magic flow charts 4e has incorporated could be implemented universally and would provide an excellent starting point for developing "who teaches what how well and to what depth" within a specific setting. Some things can be learned/improved w/out assistance, some not - those which can could still be learned faster/easier/better 90% of the time with such assistance. I'm going to have to work up something regarding progression, though I doubt I'll take it to the point of "everything only by school" - various alternative learning and training options should be present. The Khurorkh are predominantly more formal via Lodges, Shyz'n, etc., even though childhood/juvenile training is linked to family/clan the older members seeing to this are themselves part of some sort of Shyz'n, whether guild, grove/church/order, military unit, vessel or whatever. I definitely want to produce some distinctive "schools" in the world as in styles - whether fighting, artistic, healing, philosophical or what-have-you. Some things could only be learned from certain schools - esp. specific "secret" techniques. (Again, not only martial: craft/trade secrets, etc. as well.) I just want to leave a fairly large body open to learn with minimal restrictive mandatory affiliation, e.g., anyone can go to a Temple of Zelatrix and learn the basic carpentry to construct a sturdy bench for a very nominal donation/trade/volunteer service.
 
[blockquote[Sparkletwist]What I like about GURPS is its tremendous openendedness and flexiblity. What I dislike about GURPS is its tremendous openendedness and flexibility.

While I was learning the system, I was trying to convert some of my favorite characters from past adventures into GURPS characters... I had to post several times on the GURPS forum and get advice as to what combination of powers and such would best reflect their abilities. There was something sort of mathematical to it, and it felt like I was playing an intense munchkinesque game of minmaxing when all I was really trying to do was create a character with a certain combination of powers.

That's what's both interesting and maddening about GURPS. I must heartily agree with Vreegs 2nd commandment...[/blockquote]
Definitely on all counts. There's so much - and a lot of it done extremely well, that it suffers from "Lavishly Excellent Salad Bar Overload Syndrome" and it can be really hard to resist the temptation to try to add everything that looks really tasty even if some of the flavors don't quite mix well. Fortunately at present I only have a couple of NPCs to really convert - others are more conceptual and can simply be created. Converting a DnD character of higher levels to a GURPS character of proportional power/level/experience relative to their role in the old system can be extremely difficult if not impossible due to the combination of skills/feats/class abilities, etc.; it's often necessary to either drop some abilities or accept someone even more powerful in game scale. For key opponents in particular, either option can be very problematic and even more so if you need to transition PCs. There are some aspects of class abilities that I want to recreate within GURPS that I'm not not sure how I will approach exactly. I can work some into "training curricula" for certain professions - e.g., turning or some similar effect upon undead for professional priests (at least of certain gods, not necessarily all). Most I think can simply be left as skill/advantage options with the choice up to players rather then turning "professions" in the setting back into class-like straitjackets. Where there any particular examples you recall working particularly well/easily or difficult/broken?

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawYou.

Go back and re-read the very first sentence in the entire thread, then, and it will answer your question.