The Campaign Builder's Guild

When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone.

One of the most valuable books I've ever read.  Totally changed the way I see maleness, femaleness, and sexual identity in general, and opened my eyes to a human history that was utterly unlike what the scholars told me.  It's also got me rethinking my notions of fantasy, which is one of the many reasons why I've posted bugger-all recently.

Acrimone, you crack me up.
We have simlar reading tastes.   Spinoza is the only one to me that is new on that list, though St. Augustine I only have read through quotes (and have stolen some for my setting to give flavor to the Elder Omwo~ in the Age of Heroes....I admit my theft)
I will, however, heartliy agree with every one, and now must find Spinoza...

SA, an interesting choice.  I read some of the discussion on said subject, though not the book.  My exposure to the conflict also has an effect on the cradle area of Celtricia.  This from the Igbar pages...

[ooc]"The Laws will be discussed in detail later, but one curiosity is worth mentioning.  The Grey March, Sembina and the Bright Lands are all matrilineal countries, meaning that descent and family names are generally kept through the mother.  This is due to the fact the tribal clans and the clans of families that have become acculturated are all matrilineal.  However, Argussian Empiric law has always been patrilineal, and Igbar has kept laws of descent, legitimacy and inheritance that way since it has been done that way since the 300's.  However, it often causes a 'clan-vs-law' dynamic.  Often, two set of records are kept.


Women take care of most of the child-rearing in Igbar (except in some cases in omwo~ families and the teenage Orcash), but many still work.  It is the custom of grandparents and churches to help watch infants, and for children or walking age and upwards to travel with their mothers everywhere, though the wealthy families have many variations on this.  Farming families in Igtiche will often have father in the field right after 'Red Dawn', but mother and the children will be out with him a few hours later, after the home is taken care of.  Similar patterns are seen in Igbar's merchant shops, where two or three generations, from young child to grandmother, may be found helping in the family business." [/ooc]

I have to agree that property, inheritance, power-grabbing by gender, etc, and laws of descent are critical in creating a setting-in-motion.  Now I'll have to read that one.

LV,

You admit your theft, but do you open yourself to God's Grace to cleanse you of it?

:)

Anyway, I've read a Short History of Everything.  It was pretty good.  I don't think I'd call it "indispensible" but that's just opinion, and you can never know in advance what sort of an effect one book or another is going to have on someone.  I would certainly recommend it for reading!

I seriously disagreed with Loewen's overall thesis, so that dampened my enthusiasm for that particular book.  But it is also well-worth reading and in another possible world I could easily fall in love with that book.  (The historical analysis is pretty good, but the social analysis of the effect of history I thought was unfounded.)

But Clockwise Thinking.... you've given me something new to read!

Hmmmm.  I have a new thread idea, but I need to see if it's been done already.

Augustine provided the wind, but I must raise the sail.

I thought that Loewen's main thesis, that the textbooks used in High School do a less than admirable job at reflecting history as it is understood now, was clear.  I also agree with him that teaching history as it really happenned with all the faults and foibles, verus giving high schoolers a predigested, sanitized, idealized history would create more critical thinking.  
However, I have to agree that he does at times drift into making the same social points again and again, and gets quite heavy handed in that way sometimes.

I did not take his thesis to be about critical thinking, but about attitude towards the future, and there I thought he was off-base.  I think a good strong narrative mythology is an important part of any culture that expects to survive.  You can have historians know the truth -- hell, adults can learn the truth later.  But I'm on board with Plato that getting the kids to subscribe to the culture is critical.  Dissection and realism can come later.

Of course, Loewen disagrees.  And reasonable minds can.

Quote from: IshmaylDaniel Quinn's Ishmael.  At first, it opened my eyes to the vast, cultural-wide "conspiracy" of the agricultural revolution.  However, in recent years, it is more of an eye-opening work on why dichotomical thinking is a very flawed way of thinking about the world.

Hm. I'm not sure I'm understanding that second part. Are you referring to the way Quinn used that sort of thinking, defining the Takers and Leavers, or the way society in general uses that sort of thinking (civilized/primitive, human/animal, etc)?

Both :)

Whoever mentioned "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"... didn't the authors recently admit it was all a hoax?

Maybe I'm remembering/interpreting wrong...

Even if I'm right, though, I suppose it's still an interesting theoretical study.

Crap.  I can't believe I forgot to mention The Bible.  I'm not particularly religious, mind you, but really... it's a friggin' awesome collection of books.

Quote from: IshmaylBoth :)

So are you more for or more against the general premise of the book?


@Acrimone: I agree, the Bible is a pretty indispensable anthology. Regardless of whether you accept it in Faith, or if you feel that it's a fancy work of fiction, it still has a ton of really freaking cool stories.

Quote from: KindlingWhoever mentioned "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"... didn't the authors recently admit it was all a hoax?

Maybe I'm remembering/interpreting wrong...

Even if I'm right, though, I suppose it's still an interesting theoretical study.

I don't know about the actual authors.

The theoretical Priori de Sion, that is supposed to have this hidden information about Jesus and Mary Magdalene, has been at on time or another "exposed" as hoaxers, but

1) Just because someone says it's a hoax doesn't completely debunk everything.

2) What evidence is there that the hoax is a hoax other than certain people's word?
and
3) Even if the Priori de Sion is fictional that doesn't make all speculation in this area null.

It's also, as I said simply interestign to see another side of things after being fed one story for a long time.

Quote from: SDragonit still has a ton of really freaking cool stories.

I'm still waiting for the Peter Jackson directed movie based on the book of Judges.

Quote from: khyron11441) Just because someone says it's a hoax doesn't completely debunk everything.

Uh, yeah, it does. If I'm making connections and conclusions based on false assumptions or made up facts, the entire thing comes crashing down like a house of cards. Especially if I'm the one who admits it's a hoax.

Quote from: khyron11442) What evidence is there that the hoax is a hoax other than certain people's word?

You mean besides the backing of historical documents, dozens of scholarly articles, and common sense?

Quote from: khyron11443) Even if the Priori de Sion is fictional that doesn't make all speculation in this area null.

Actually, anything having to do with them, it does. You can't simply fiat the existence of millenia-spanning conspiracies.

Quote from: khyron1144It's also, as I said simply interestign to see another side of things after being fed one story for a long time.

Right. Being fed the story that's got historical backing, I can see how that gets tedious.

Quote from: Stargate525Uh, yeah, it does. If I'm making connections and conclusions based on false assumptions or made up facts, the entire thing comes crashing down like a house of cards. Especially if I'm the one who admits it's a hoax.

I don't want to sidetrack the discussion for too long, so this is the last thing I'll say on the subject.  You have your opinion.  I have mine.

Let's ignore the specific conspiracy theory of Holy Blood, Holy Grail and consider another example of an exposed hoax:

Crop circles
After the phenomenon of crop circles or crop markings, escpecially in the United Kingdom, was getting media attention a group of people in the U.K. popped and claimed credit for deliberately making crop cirlces.  Thus this phenomenon was relegated to a bin marked hoax.

One problem woth the hoax explanation is this was a small group of people and crop circles were a worldwide phenomenon.  
Another is that the method demonstrated for making crop circles by this group does not produce a crop circle consistent in physical properties with every single crop circle found up to this time, only a certain subset of crop circles.
Most troubling, the people who claim to have perpetrated the hoax could not come up with a compelling reason why they chose to carry out this hoax.

Now geting back to Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the book lays the following claims:

1) Jesus known as the Christ (from the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew Messiah, a word which pretty much means king) was at some point in his mission staking as much a political as a religious claim.

2) Jesus was married to and/or had sex with a woman who came to be known as Mary Magdalene.

3) Mary Magdalene survived Jesus's political execution and fled to another land, possibly France, carrying Jesus's unborn baby.

4) The Meorivingian kings of France were descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

5) The Knights Templar came into possession of this information.

6) An offshoot of the Knights Templar known as the Priori de Sion survived the destruction of the rest of the Templars and passed down this information to the present day.

7) The Priori de Sion still exists and wants to return France to a monarchy ruled by a Merovingian.

Now, even if the Priori de Sion were exposed as a hoax, that only makes claims 4-7 untenable.  The other three claims are either a matter of interpretation of historical documentation  including the Gospels, or else somewhat corroborated by known existing non-Priori de Sion sources.  

Quote from: khyron1144Let's ignore the specific conspiracy theory of Holy Blood, Holy Grail and consider another example of an exposed hoax:

Crop circles
After the phenomenon of crop circles or crop markings, escpecially in the United Kingdom, was getting media attention a group of people in the U.K. popped and claimed credit for deliberately making crop cirlces.  Thus this phenomenon was relegated to a bin marked hoax.

One problem woth the hoax explanation is this was a small group of people and crop circles were a worldwide phenomenon.  
Another is that the method demonstrated for making crop circles by this group does not produce a crop circle consistent in physical properties with every single crop circle found up to this time, only a certain subset of crop circles.
Most troubling, the people who claim to have perpetrated the hoax could not come up with a compelling reason why they chose to carry out this hoax.

Bad example. If the claim of a hoax is false, that doesn't make the event a hoax.

Quote from: khyron11441) Jesus known as the Christ (from the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew Messiah, a word which pretty much means king) was at some point in his mission staking as much a political as a religious claim.

Despite Jesus saying explicitly in the gospels that his kingdom is not of this world, encouraging obedience to Caesar and the ruling authority of the day in political matters, and doing nothing to foment rebellion, anarchy, or any political movement whatsoever? Every eyewitness source we have agrees on this, especially the gospels.

Quote from: khyron11442) Jesus was married to and/or had sex with a woman who came to be known as Mary Magdalene.

Such an event would have been placed in the Gospels; there was no compulsion for him to be celibate, and indeed it was considered somewhat strange at the time for a teacher to not have a wife.

Quote from: khyron11443) Mary Magdalene survived Jesus's political execution and fled to another land, possibly France, carrying Jesus's unborn baby.

France? All the way across the known world? That's like getting harassed by your local paper and moving to China to avoid them. Not to mention that France at the time this would happen wasn't even part of the Roman Empire...

Quote from: khyron11444) The Meorivingian kings of France were descendants of Jesus and Mary Magdalene.

That's a five hundred year gap. If Magdalene had kids there, a significant portion of the entire population could claim descent. However, you still haven't placed Mary in France reliably anyway.

Quote from: khyron11445) The Knights Templar came into possession of this information.

How? When? Through what means?

Quote from: khyron1144Now, even if the Priori de Sion were exposed as a hoax, that only makes claims 4-7 untenable.  The other three claims are either a matter of interpretation of historical documentation  including the Gospels, or else somewhat corroborated by known existing non-Priori de Sion sources.  

Actually, since none of your claims are correct, or have basic grounding in fact, they're all untenable. As far as I know, none of these claims are backed up with reliable sources, and interpretation can only be done accurately by someone who knows the background of the text.

[spoiler=Off Subject]
You've still just interpreting data with knowledge that you have gained in your lifetime.  I'm just sayin'....[/spoiler]

The Enchanted Loom: Mind in the Universe - Robert Jastrow