The Campaign Builder's Guild

I've been going through the fighter's powers to try to get an eyeball weight on various conditions. There seems to be two levels of conditions, ones that are worth 1W damage and ones that are worth 2W damage (prone is worth more than slowing, for instance).

Other than that, the balancing of powers seems to be more of an eyeballing than really balancing them. For instance, at the level 7 encounter powers, one simple power is one target 2W+Str damage and the target takes a -2 penalty to AC until the end of your next turn, while another power is one target 3W+Str damage but you take a -2 penalty to hit with the attack. My eye for balance says that trading the AC penalty for more damage would be just fine, especially since the AC penalty is so significant and will result in more damage from the party.

One thing I'm trying to attempt is to put a reasonable estimate on the amount of damage that 1W really amounts to. At the momment I'm looking at the Mace as the most basic weapon; +2 proficiency and 1d8 damage. Not everyone has millitary weapons, so I wanted to look at simple weapons. Assume that "millitary weapon proficiency" is like getting +1 damage per 1W.

With 1W being worth nearly 5 points of damage, I can weigh it with my maneuver system.

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I would like to have some savy posters to run ideas past, mainly fundamental system ideas, nothing specific. For instance, I want to discuss the merits of 4E's power system vs. something like Mutants and Masterminds where characters can typically use their powers as much as they want.

I've decided that I want to create a system that has a bit more of a nod to realism than 4E, and one that is modular so that all that is required to switch era/genres is to switch out the classes. This way I can kill two birds with one stone and create my d20 Modern Sci-Fi game and my fantasy game at once.

I've been watching a lot of Stargate SG1 and Atlantis lately, and I really want to allow the Daniel Jackson/Rodney McKay character to work; the smart non-combat character. 4E's system of unified attack and defense progressions allows a non-combat character to still contribute in combat, since their combat scores are only going to be a few points lower than others', and the skill challenge system allows for the creation of complex combats where a smart character can do their smart thing while others are fighting (disarm the bomb before the badguys kill the party; translate the tablet to determine how to turn on the ancient weapon ...).

Star Wars Saga edition had the noble, and that's something I'd like to allow in my game. Thus, I believe using Saga/d20 Modern's alternating feat/talent system will be the best way to handle it. New talent trees can be added to cover things. I'd like to keep separate classes and have HP and Skill Points be different for them, maybe with 1st level starting bonuses, but a class-less system might be better.

Well like I said, take a look at Celtricia. The issue you are describing here is actually one of the major RPG problems that it solved. Balancing combatants and non-combatants is hard, but not impossible.

'Solved' is a strong word.  'Addressed and still tinking with' may be more accurate.

Nonetheless, I will say that last night the skills that gained the most experience were:

Basic Outdoors, and the subskill of tracking.

Basic Detect, and the subskill Detect hidden.

Basic Cooking and the Subskill Camp Cooking

Basic Engineer and ther subskill Mason

Basic Scholar with the subskill Historical Knowledge.

And the combat skills were not even used.

And in the Igbarian Crew, the most popluar Guilds to belong to are the Bardic Guilds, not the Knights or fighting schools.  SO maybe some of it is working the way we want.

Vreeg, sounds like you have a group that is fulfilled by non-combat stuff. I think I have potentially 4 players who are like that, and another who likes it to an extent (he still wants to advance his character, and wouldn't like to be stuck at one level forever).

I'm currently having considerable difficulty with my ability scores right now. The mental scores are giving me trouble, as my current set up for them isn't working 100%. I'm worried that Will and Perception lack skills outside of their basic defenses, and a few things don't fit (Bluff being a Charisma skill when Bluff is more related to water; Knowledge being an Intelligence skill when Divination is related to air).

Additionally, I'm not sure Strength and Dexterity are going to possess enough material for them to be balanced against the other scores. I want Dexterity to be the score for most attack rolls, and Strength to be the score for most damage rolls, but those shouldn't apply at all for magical attacks, and thus aren't worth quite as much.

Quote from: Kapn XeviatI'm currently having considerable difficulty with my ability scores right now. The mental scores are giving me trouble, as my current set up for them isn't working 100%. I'm worried that Will and Perception lack skills outside of their basic defenses, and a few things don't fit (Bluff being a Charisma skill when Bluff is more related to water; Knowledge being an Intelligence skill when Divination is related to air).

(Warning I'm at work so you are getting this while I think of it and I haven't had time to ponder the full effects of doing it this way. As always feel free to ignore)

What if you set up your abilities scores as such:

Air: (Agility) Air governs the body's quickness.
Earth: (Constitution) Earth governs the body's resistance.
Fire: (Strength) Fire governs the body's raw strength.
Water: (Dexterity) Water governs the body's ability to coordinate and adapt.

Air & Earth: (Perception) The mind's ability to quickly interpret its surrounding as well as its resistance to false images.
Earth & Fire: (Will) The mind's strength and resistance to outside forces.
Fire & Water (Charisma) The mind's strength over others and ability to adapt.
Water & Air (Intelligence) The mind's ability to think and adapt and how quickly it can do so.

Void: (Void) Void makes one whole, for it is what exists between all.


Mental stats determined are the balance (or lack of) between two charkas.

Now when you do your skills with Mental abilities you can put Bluff (water) instead of Bluff (Charisma). Doing so would allow either ability to be usable for the skill. In the case of Bluff the character would use which ever was higher either Intelligence or Charisma. How does intelligence work with Bluff? Well being informed or having knowledge can make a lie believable, you don't just need to be Charismatic. Intimidate is similar, you force your will on the person (Will), or you use your threatening personality (Charisma). I admit that is a stretch, but it could work.

Of course to do this you'd have to differentiate between mental skills and physical skills. Having a low mental ability won't be too detrimental and could help lend balance to the system. I don't know, but hopefully you can pull some inspiration from the blubbering thoughts above.

I decided that, for now, I'm going to focus on my maneuver system with only a few changes to the 4E system. First, all characters will follow the following progression:

[spoiler=Level Benefits][table=Level Benefits]
[tr][th]Level[/th][th]Level Bonus[/th][th]Level Benefit[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]+0[/td][td]Race, Talent, Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]+1[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]+1[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]+2[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]+2[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]+3[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]+3[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]+4[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]+4[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10[/td][td]+5[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11[/td][td]+5[/td][td]Talent, Feat, +2 to all scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12[/td][td]+6[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td][td]+6[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14[/td][td]+7[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15[/td][td]+7[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16[/td][td]+8[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]17[/td][td]+8[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]18[/td][td]+9[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]19[/td][td]+9[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]20[/td][td]+10[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21[/td][td]+10[/td][td]Talent, Feat, +2 to all scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]22[/td][td]+11[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]23[/td][td]+11[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]24[/td][td]+12[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]25[/td][td]+12[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]26[/td][td]+13[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]27[/td][td]+13[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]28[/td][td]+14[/td][td]Feat, +2 to 2 scores[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]29[/td][td]+14[/td][td]Talent[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]30[/td][td]+15[/td][td]Feat[/td][/tr][/table][/spoiler]

Classes will still exist, and they will still grant everything they do in 4E.

I am entirely removing powers and will be replacing them with my maneuver system. Class tied feats will also be removed and made into talents. Feats will be entirely reevaluated and recast as minor character adjustments. They will be things that expand on a character's options rather than boost their overall power. Feats should be nice but not required. Feats will also tied to skills more closely, with more feats like Long Jumper and Sure Climber (feats which grant extra utility with a skill).

There was a point where I was looking at just merging Feats and Talents into the same thing, but I recently realized that keeping them allows me to control the system better. Feats can be minor and Talents can be bigger benefits. Keeping them separate allows for this differentiation to stay balanced, otherwise you run into the situation where players will have a harder time picking minor feats to round out or develop their character without weakening themselves. Bonuses to AC, Attack, and Defense will be entirely handled by automatic ability score bonuses and assumed item enhancement bonuses, so that no feat becomes a must have (as of right now, the Armor Specialization feats are nearly must have items otherwise your AC will fall even further behind monsters).

I have also doubled up on the ability score bonuses so that character's base abilities progress at the same rate as monsters. I introduced this over on the WotC boards but it wasn't hugely recieved. Here, I'll explain myself. First, this is the bonus progression for AC, Attack, and Defense for players; remember that monsters will gain +29 to all 3 of these stats from 1st to 30th level. The starting bonus does not matter, only how much they change from 1st to 30th level.

AC (Heavy)
Level: +15
Masterwork: +6
Ability: -
Enhancement: +6
Total: +27; Result: -2 behind monster progression.

AC (Light)
Level: +15
Masterwork: +2
Ability: +4 (if maxed, a stat can gain +8 points by 28th level; +10 points if Demigod is used)
Enhancement: +6
Total: +27 (+28 w/Demigod); Result: -2 (-1 w/Demigod) behind monster progression.

Attack
Level: +15
Masterwork: -
Ability: +4 (if maxed, a stat can gain +8 points by 28th level; +10 points if Demigod is used)
Enhancement: +6
Total: +25 (+26 w/Demigod); Result: -4 (-3 w/Demigod) behind monster progression.

Defense
Level: +15
Masterwork: -
Ability: +4 (+5 w/Demigod; +1 for secondary defenses, defenses that a class's primary or secondary ability score don't apply to)
Enhancement: +6
Total: +25 (+26 w/Demigod, +22 for secondary defense); Result: -4 (-3 w/Demigod, -7 for secondary defense) behind monster progression.

My system removes the need for masterwork bonuses for Light Armor, and brings Light Armor, Attack, and Primary Defenses up to +29 (by increasing the total ability modifier bonus from +4 to +8), which evens it out with monsters. It also smooths the progression a bit. Heavy Armor remains an issue, because Ability Score Bonuses don't apply to it (currently I'm planning to just spread the masterwork bonuses across more enhancement levels).

The only things that I'd like to put in my own homebrewed system is the other 3 ability scores and extra focus on skills (weapon skills, skill benefits at certain master levels ...). But 4E is almost exactly what I want anyway, so I feel this compromise will make it easier for me to make what I want.

Additionally, these changes will still allow my system to be modular; all you have to do is switch the classes out and you can change the genre. I might make a few adjustments to the skill list to facilitate this (such as re-combining the knowledge skills and reintroducing the craft skill; these skills exist in all genres and times, but their exact specializations are different).

The plus side to this is that 4E monsters will still be compatable.

Adding to my post flurry, I'm going to be taking a firm look at my system work. Now that I have decided to use Mutants and Masterminds as a system base, there are many things I will be looking at differently.

One thing that Mutants and Masterminds still makes difficult is my desire to split up the ability scores. It makes it worse actually, since Dexterity is made quite weaker.

The only problem is that I will not be able to use 4E monsters wholesale. But a chart system could be made to make monsters easily enough.

about some of the stats that you have trouble with.

Will: Will is mental fortitude and stamina, and can be considered the mental constitution and strenght.
Therefor, it could act as a stat that gives bonus when ever the character does an action in a way where they spend more effort and time then normally.

For example, a guy with no skill in cooking might fail under normal circumstances, but if he have high will, then to hell if he have to spend the intere day and cross reference 3 different cooking book, tonight he will have a properly spiced beef for when his date comes over.
basicly a stat representing sheer willpower to keep interest and not just give up in frustration when putting in effort.

it could also give a limited bonus in combat where the character is out-classed. for example, gaining a bonus on to-hit or on damage, if down to less then 25% hit point, to represent the "no way I'm going down with a whimper ya bastard!" attitude.

basicly, high will = succeding something due to putting in effort made easier or more efficient.

Perception: perception could also give bonus to iniative, if iniative not only represents reacting fast, but also represents the ability to quikly sieze up the situation before applying an approbiated action.

it could also give a bonus in to-hit, to represent the ability to spot openings in the enemies defense, weak spots (that can be hit for massive damage) and read the opponents combat style.

possible keep the bonus on to-hit from perception a constant, but instead let high perception reduce the number of rounds needed to observe the opponent, before the bonus is applied.

Quote from: Kapn XeviatAdding to my post flurry, I'm going to be taking a firm look at my system work. Now that I have decided to use Mutants and Masterminds as a system base, there are many things I will be looking at differently.

One thing that Mutants and Masterminds still makes difficult is my desire to split up the ability scores. It makes it worse actually, since Dexterity is made quite weaker.

The only problem is that I will not be able to use 4E monsters wholesale. But a chart system could be made to make monsters easily enough.

I'll be watching to see what way you want to take this.  I'm curious to see how much you will take from here and how much you will synthesize.  
What power growth curve are you looking at?  Something close to traditional fantasy, or something grittier?  And how are you thinking about doing spells?

Since I am using the Mutants and Masterminds System, I have a bit less options when dealing with ability scores. To-hit is not determined by ability scores, in order to keep their value lower, but I might end up bringing it back since my desire for 8 scores tears things down too much; it would be fine in the end, because M&M allows you to buy stats (like to hit and saves) back up.

Power Growth Curve will probably be a lot smaller. The jump between Power Levels in Mutants and Masterminds is huge.

Spells will be largely individualized by the caster, though I will probably present a number of premade spells to make things easier for newcomers to the system. You will determine what element (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Aether) and what sphere (Elemental, Physical, Mental, Aether) it belongs to. Mutants and Masterminds use power arrays, and a single array can only be one element, but you can have multiple spheres. I may or may not have some restriction on the spheres (like required ability scores for Physical and Mental spheres); I'm not sure.