The Campaign Builder's Guild

My group and I are dissatisfied with the current 4E cleric. We feel that the paladin's recent makeover (allowing paladins of any deity) makes the old high strength heavy armor cleric obsolete. As fans of many games, we long for a "clothy" cleric (to borrow the term from WoW), who, like a wizard, uses only their magic to fight and aid their allies. So, today I am starting my alternate cleric: the priest.

Like all classes, I am beginning with two builds. As my newfound 4E proficiency has shown me, all classes in 4E have 3 key abilities; some of those abilities are primary abilities (attacks are keyed off them) and some are secondary abilities (secondary effects on attacks, and often utilities are keyed off them). As a light [note=The Ranger Paradox]The ranger currently exists as the only light armored class in the PHB that can potentially have neither Dex or Int as a key ability; melee rangers which focus on increasing their Wisdom for special effects and paragon path abilities will find that their AC falls behind their companions if they remain in light armor. Thus, STR/wis rangers generally drop a feat into Chain proficiency as early ast 1st level (if they have less than a 16 Dex, they will gain AC for doing this). This observation is one of the reasons I have issues with the current Ranger class, but that's a discussion for a thread about my Marksman class.[/note]armored class, the priest will require Dex or Int to be one of those key ability scores, and it needs to be either the sole primary ability (as in the Rogue and Wizard) or the sole secondary ability (as in the Warlock). Because Dexterity doesn't really make any sense, I have chosen to use Int as the sole secondary ability.

That means the class should be designed with two primary abilities, making it so each build utilizes a different attack score. Looking over the remianing scores, only two stand out as viable candidates: Wisdom and Charisma. The two builds I want to go towards are an enlightened, more pacifistic priest whose powers are generally defensive in nature, and a more bolstrous offensive priest whose powers are used to smite the unfaithful (or those of the "wrong" faith). Looking at this, Wisdom seems ideal for the Enlightened Priest, while Charisma seems ideal for the other priest (I need a name, one that won't offend like Zelot or Inquisitor might).

Before I begin reallocating the cleric's powers to the two priest builds, I'd like a discussion of what sort of effects should belong to each of the two builds (or if my idea of the general distribution of abilities is sound). As I stand now, I believe powers which grant allies attack bonuses should be Charisma based while powers which grant defense bonuses should be Wisdom based. This doesn't cover the gammut of cleric powers, though.

I am also considering presenting the healing attack powers like the Ranger's powers which are both melee and ranged: Priest healing attack powers will generally use either Wisdom or Charisma for attack. I am considering presenting healing powers in this fashion because healing is the Priest's thing, and all priests should have the option to heal. I think the Wisdom Priest should be a better healer (because healing is a more pacifistic action), but attacking someone to heal someone else could be seen as vampiric or some other offensive action that would fit the Charisma Priest.

Lastly, I will probably be removing the cleric's "Healer's Lore" ability and replacing it with a class feature with options to better represent the two builds. "Healer's Lore" will probably be the Wisdom Cleric's option, but I'd rather see something else in the Charisma Priest's hands.

So, thoughts? Opinions?

You could have something like 'Dark Knowledge' (from the 3.5 Archivist) for the Offensive minded Priest. Having never played 4E, I can't give you any way of implementing it but it would be interesting (and possibly tied to INT).

To me an offensive Priest would be some one who has a fiery passion for his faith, enough to risk life and limb to to purge the unclean. Maybe modify a few Wizard spells to deal Fiery Radiant Damage that hurt enemies and heal allies in the area of effect.

 Would the Priest still be a Leader, or more of a Controller or a Striker?

The Priest is going to be totally a leader. Sure there will be some controller elements (like the current cleric), but they're going to be a leader at their base.

I forget what Dark Knowledge was, but I'll look it up.

Quote from: Kapn XeviatThe Priest is going to be totally a leader. Sure there will be some controller elements (like the current cleric), but they're going to be a leader at their base.

I forget what Dark Knowledge was, but I'll look it up.

Leader, that's the way I figured you were headed, i just wanted to be sure :)

Quote from: Here's the relevant text from the Heroes of Horror Excerpt:Dark Knowledge: Three times per day, an archivist can draw upon his expansive knowledge of monsters, granting his allies benefits against the creatures they face. Doing this counts as a move action. The secrets of dark knowledge pertain only to aberrations, elementals, magical beasts, outsiders, or undead.

An archivist unlocks new dark knowledge abilities as his level increases and can also call upon his dark knowledge more often, gaining one additional daily use for every three archivist levels (4/day at 3rd level, 5/day at 6th level, and so forth).

Using dark knowledge requires a Knowledge check of a type appropriate to the creature faced. A Knowledge (arcana) check reveals secrets of magical beasts, Knowledge (dungeoneering) pertains to aberrations, Knowledge (religion) covers undead, and Knowledge (the planes) applies to outsiders and elementals. The DC of the check is 15. Most of the archivist's dark knowledge abilities increase in effectiveness if he succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more. Dark knowledge can only be used once against any given creature.

The archivist's dark knowledge can affect a single creature or all creatures of the same race, depending on the effect used. A target creature must be within 60 feet, and the archivist must be aware of the creature's presence, although he need not have a line of sight to it. The effects of dark knowledge last for 1 minute, unless stated otherwise.

Tactics: The archivist knows the general combat behaviors of creatures of that race, granting his allies a +1 bonus on attack rolls made against them. For example, an archivist confronted by corruption eaters* who succeeded on his Knowledge (dungeoneering) check would grant his allies the attack bonus against all the corruption eaters they fought in that encounter. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, then this bonus increases to +2. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, then this bonus increases to +3.

Puissance: Starting at 5th level, the archivist can use his dark knowledge to help his allies fight off the corrupting influence of other creatures. Allies within 60 feet of the archivist gain a +1 bonus on saving throws against the affected creature's abilities. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3.

Foe: Starting at 8th level, an archivist can direct his allies to attack vital spots of his enemies. On a successful Knowledge check, he grants them a bonus to weapon damage rolls made against the target creatures equal to 1d6 points of damage. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, then this bonus increases to 2d6. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, then this bonus increases to 3d6.

Dread Secret: By speaking aloud a dread secret of the target creature, an archivist of 11th level or higher can dazzle a target creature for 1 round. Unlike other dark knowledge, this ability can be used only against a single creature. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, then the target is dazed for 1 round. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, then the target is stunned for 1 round (if the target is immune to being stunned but not immune to being dazed, such as most undead, then the archivist can choose to daze the target instead of stunning it).

Foreknowledge: Starting at 14th level, an archivist can better prepare his allies for the attacks of the affected creature, making it harder for the creature to land blows and successfully deal damage. Allies within 30 feet of the archivist gain a +1 insight bonus to Armor Class that applies to attacks by the affected creature only. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 10 or more, this bonus increases to +2. If the archivist succeeds on his Knowledge check by 20 or more, this bonus increases to +3.

Tactics, Puissance, Foe, and Foreknowledge would work for a leader, but I'm not entirely sure how this would work as a class ability within 4E. It could definately work as a Channel Divinity (basically domain power from 3E), but it wouldn't really parallel the Wisdom Cleric's ability to get their Intelligence bonus as bonus healing on all healing spells.

I do really like that ability. The Archivist sounds fun.

Quote from: Kapn XeviatI do really like that ability. The Archivist sounds fun.

The really cool thing is that they can learn all Divine Spells in the game!

Anyways, are you sure the wrathful Priest and the nicer Priest can coexist in the same class? They have very different flavor, unless both's tendencies are tempered some what to make for more of a sanctioned Evangelist type class.  

I think it all depends on what name the Cha priest is given.

Quote from: Kapn XeviatI think it all depends on what name the Cha priest is given.

Names do have power. Look at the 3.5 Ninja, had it been named Shadow Scoundrel, the class would have been accepted and forgotten. The word 'ninja' means some thing different to everyone. The Ninja class, presented in the Complete Adventurer, did not meet the desired 'what a ninja is to me' prerequisite to many people, thus it is hated and despised.

Evangelist might work for the WIS Priest, though I could see it working for the CHA one as well, so long as you flavored the abilities in a manner becoming of an Evangelist (i.e. fiery oratory).

I don't like Evangelist, especially for the Cha cleric; it implies converting the masses at swordpoint (since the Cha cleric is more offensive).

Quote from: Kapn XeviatI don't like Evangelist, especially for the Cha cleric; it implies converting the masses at swordpoint (since the Cha cleric is more offensive).

I suppose I always equate Evangelist to that picture in the Complete Divine  [spoiler] [/spoiler] which is to say, he's more of a soapbox converter than a by the sword type. Still, your connotation is valid as well. and one that I'm sure many players will have.

So you have the Offensive Shadow Priest whose main stat is CHA and the more loving Healing Priest whose main stat is WIS. I suppose all that really remains is to make up a few powers for the Shadow Priest and see where that leads ya.

And that's why I don't want the Cha cleric, who is focused on offensive magic, to be called the Evangelist. A Cha Cleric would work as an Evangelist (they have the Charisma to convince and convert people), but I wouldn't want that flavor next to a bunch of offensive spells.

I just finished analyzing the cleric spells, and I'm amazed at how much of a Controller the Wis Cleric is at high levels. I think I want to remove a bit of that, or at least put more leader into many of their high level spells.

Several of the Str Cleric powers will be translated into new prayers, but some of them might get directly ported over to the Paladin.

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As for other tweeking projects I have planned, I'm going to convert the Ranger into some kind of ranged martial controller.

I'm going to change the stats for Paladin to be Str for all attacks and then have one build that uses wis secondarily (who focuses on protecting allies more) and one that uses cha secondarily (who focuses on smiting enemies more).

And I'm going to change impliment mastery and add new Wizard spells to aid my setting's elemental flavor (one impliment for each element, with a Controller class ability tied into each element).

Alright, I've begun actual work. I've made a list of the Cleric's current powers with quick descriptions so I can ensure it covers all the bases. I've found the current Wis cleric to be a little too much of a controller, but I think the notion of "sub-roles" is prevalent enough to allow it to continue (the only class that doesn't seem to have a subrole is the Rogue ... poor DPSers).

One issue that I wanted to test the water for is this: Should all Clerics be Wise? The current cleric in the PHB says no; all clerics should be Charismatic, but not all should be wise. Wise and Charismatic are both things I associate with priests, but I can also imagine a priest who isn't Charismatic. I'm not certain if there should be priests walking around who aren't wise, though.

Honestly, I've always associated Priests with CHA and INT more than WIS. So I'd say yes a Priest can be Charismatic and not Wise, though that would be interesting... Maybe make INT a secondary for a CHA Priest?

I currently have Int planned as secondary for all priests (since they need the AC). But the way the Druid is set up (they can get Con to AC) is making me consider having the two priest builds be Wis/Int or Wis/Cha (cloistered cleric vs. an evangelical cleric).

To top it off, I think I'm finding the classes that have only one attack stat to work a lot better than the ones that have two (more options at each level, for instance). I already want to turn the Ranger into an Archer (removing the melee), make all Paladins strong, and make all Warlocks use Cha (tieflings not making the best Infernal Warlocks is really really odd), so I'm leaning in this new direction.

Okay, I decided that in order to get this done I need to at least get one build finalized. To make things easy on myself, I'm going to take the current Devoted Cleric and simply switch it to Wis/Int. All that I need to do then is come up with class abilities to make up for the loss of two armor proficiency feats.

The AC issue is going to be a big issue. The class is going to lose, in normal cases, 4 AC. The current cleric starts with a 16 AC. My Priest is going to have cloth proficiency, so they're typically going to start with a 12 AC.

The "Standard" character is built with a 16 in their attack stat and a 14 in their secondary stat. With Int as this cleric build's secondary stat, they'll have a 12 AC. I'm only saying they've lost 2 armor proficiencies because, generally, Hide and Chain net comparable AC (if you have a 16 Int or Dex, as a classes that use these as attack stats will, you get the same AC in either).

Then, I can make my decision if I want to make the "Evangelist Cleric" primarily wisdom with charisma secondary, or primarily charisma with intelligence secondary. Truthfully, I'm leaning towards Wisdom primarily because Priests are traditionally advisors; they root back to older "wisemen" who lead societies by giving out their wisdom. One could be synical and say that they were just smart and charasmatic people who knew how to influence others, but I think Wisdom is a core part of the archetype.

That, and I'm growing to want to see all classes use the same attack stat; it gives much more opportunity for player choices (the Strength Paladin and Cleric only have 2 choices at each power level, rather than the 4 choices the other classes have). I'm having a hard time imagining low Wis Clerics, just like I'm having a hard time imagining low Strength Paladins.

TL-DR version: I need to come up with abilities for the Priest to make up for the lost 2 armor proficiency feats. I could give another trained skill to help, but I do need at least one class ability to help make up for the more important loss of 4 AC.

Ideas?