The Campaign Builder's Guild

How do you think World of Warcraft has changed what we think about dungeons and dragons?

I personally enjoy the game, I'm not crazy about it. The think I find most interesting is the weird names they come up for the monsters. It has really become [adjective][noun]. Such as Ragefire Drake, or Spinefeathered Hawk, or Gibbering Orc. I think what i did like about WoW are the Instances and their names for those. Also following the [Adjective][Noun] practise.

4e is basically WoW on paper.  Homogenized and "new" classes, explicitly defined party roles, removal of non-combat skills, developer focus on DPR (Damage Per Round, see Character Optimization boards at gleemax) and more!  I don't mind it.  4e is a sounder system than previous editions, and I generally start a D&D campaign by throwing away all the terrible fluff, anyway.

I don't fully agree that 4E is WoW on paper, but MMORPGs definately influenced the design process. Remember, MMORPGs, especially those with PvP, have had to develope very tight balance between the classes: If Warriors were better tanks in every situation than Paladins, less people would play Paladins in competitive play.

I don't miss all of the non-combat skills. But thievery and History aren't combat. The non-combat skills that they did remove (use rope anyone?) can be replicated with raw ability checks. I do miss Craft and Profession, though.

I've never heard developers on 4E rever to DPR. Damage is a big deal for the roles which are meant to deal damage.

And I feel the roles were always there; most 4 person groups filled the party out as Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, or trades of each.

I do think the developers of 4E looked to the popularity of WoW to select the classes they did. Only the Druid and Shaman were left out of 4E, and only the Warlock lacks an an analogue.

But if 4E was exactly WoW, then Warlocks would have pets, Paladins would be as good healers as Clerics, and Clerics would wear cloth. It's close, and bravo for taking back what was theres (most, if not all, fantasy CRPGs are based on D&D in some fashion).

What Eladris has said seems to be right, 4e is *very* different from previous editions (I have some experience with them from Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate games). It wouldn't surprise me if WotC was gearing up for a new round of CRPGs with 4e rules.

Overall from what I know, I think combat in 4e is a lot smoother and better overall. I do think its lacking in non-combat stuff but that could easily be fixed with a little effort. So I think WoW has benefited in that respect.

WoW being what it is has influence everything, quicker simpler combat is the main thing. *Powers* for every class I think is a direct result of WoW.

The popularity of WoW has definitely influenced 4E design.

If you look at it as a negative all you see are point/click powers, pre-defined class roles, weak multiclassing, lack of out-of-combat skills and more focus on combat balance.

If you look at it as a positive you see a diverse class selection, unique ways to build your character through powers, group oriented combat and a focus on combat balance.

Both sides are right and wrong.

At any rate back on topic here: Wow has fundamentally changed the RPG world, both P&P and VG. Further, I believe WotC has to try to garner support (read as: a fanbase) from the new generation of MMO-loving kids. D&D won't have as many 1E & 2E grognards down the line. It needs to replenish the supply of gamers or else the future of D&D looks grim.

So I don't mind the fact that 4E was heavily influenced by WoW as much as I would have been other wise.  

I think it's... difficult to judge how much WoW influenced DnD when they both borrow a LOT from every fantasy trope ever.

Quote4e is basically WoW on paper. Homogenized and "new" classes, explicitly defined party roles, removal of non-combat skills

non-magical[/i] adamantium plate? (a #@13*( npc blacksmith, that's who.)

But still, their exclusion is odd to say the least.

Like Xeviat though, most of the other skills I don't miss, as long as they're understood to be rolled into other skills. (Balance is now Acrobatics, Use Rope is now "just roll a wis check already".)

I miss the old style of more skills though I prefer less than individual skills than 3.5 but more than 4E. I think Pathfinder found a happy medium.

At any rate, I have used profession and Craft skills in game before. Just because other people see them as 'meaningless' doesn't mean they aren't. Honesty though, if 4E had kept skill ranks, this would be a non-issue.

I can't comment on WoW influencing D&D, but I can comment on the results:

I wish the powers didn't all seem to be doing the same thing in slightly different versions.  I've seen this in VG RPGs, where two attack are really just doing the exact same thing with a different face.  The things is in a video game you get to watch the cool animation for each different one (and you don't have to do the math yourself) so you can ignore anything else that's the same.  In 4e you don't have that, so there really should be something to distinguish each power in the mechanics.  The least they could have done was cut down the number displayed and presented similar powers in one format with some choices of how to customize it.  Less wasted space.

My complaint against them wasn't that they were useless, so much as they were either useless as implemented, or the cost was too high.

Spending skill ranks on a skill that isn't actually useful for an adventurer as written (craft weaponsmithing), when skills more useful for an adventurer are available for the same price (or less for cross class skills!) may be a good roleplaying choice but a very poor combat choice. (And it's not like the combat-loaded guy can't just roleplay something with no skill costs--"I have a dysfunctional family", unlike craft skills, costs no game resource. In effect, profession and "non-practical" craft skills made some roleplaying hooks have a game resource cost while others did not.)

(My argument against the craft skills that created things is that they took too much time--WAY too much time--for too little benefit. The "good" craftable things could take weeks or months and could only be done at higher levels when magic items pretty much made them obsolete, AFAICT. In effect, they have a game cost but very little game benefit. Something like Profession [Innkeeper], is an even more extreme example.)

QuoteI miss the old style of more skills though I prefer less than individual skills than 3.5 but more than 4E. I think Pathfinder found a happy medium.

I think one of the major problems was that 3.x had distinct skills, like GURPS, but it did not have distinct COSTS, unlike GURPS--so "balance", "use rope, and "knowledge architecture" cost just as much, or DOUBLE, what the avoid attack skills cost--(tumble, concentration, spot, etc.)

If the costs had been balanced, the system would work a lot better I think--say if balance cost 1/2 or 1/4 a skill point, the "flavor" knowledges cost 1/4, but say Spot and Tumble cost 1 or 2 skill points per rank.

As is, Knowledge Architecture costing twice as much for a rogue as Tumble is just frustratingly unfair, IMO.

I always wanted to make a WoW-based craft system. I presented the idea to a roleplaying co-worker of mine based on making coffee (I worked at the cafe' in Barnes and Noble)

I killed a Barista, I earned 15 xp. Now I loot her body and get 1 handful of espresso beans + 1 bottle of hot water. I go to the Espresso Machine in Ogrimmar and start using my [COOKING] Skill. I just made a double shot of Espresso! I just earned 1 pt in [COOKING]!

There are things which do not work in PnP RPGs. Collecting mats, platforming, fetch quests, and excesive use of random encounters are amongst those things.

In 4E, crafting would be best handled with "rituals" learned after taking some kind of "craftsman" feat. Like "Ritual Casting" and "Alchemy", this feat would allow someone to make items.

To make this, and the other item creation feats, more interesting, perhaps skill challenges could be utilized. Normal encounters, including skill challenges, have a cost/benefits ratio: you risk your life and limb, and gain loot/money and XP.

Cash is less of an issue in 4E than it was in previous editions. Characters are expected to have a magic weapon/impliment, armor, and amulet/cloak, but other than that the game would be perfectly balanced if you let everyone fill every slot with an item of their level or lower. Thus, I don't feel having a craft skill that could generate money for a character would be unbalanced, as long as there was suitable risk.

So, you pay money upfront before undergoing the skill challenge to create an item. If you succeed the skill challenge, you get the item; that's your reward. If you fail, you lose the money; that's your risk. The only problem with this comes if you believe that characters don't deserve rewards if they don't risk anything; making easy items for money would bog the game down.

This way, crafting an item could be handled with the same skill challenge system that winning over a crowd would be handled, or running a store (examples of craft, perform, and profession, the "job" skills of 3E). A blacksmith making a suit of plate armor could use strength to forge and shape the metal, dexterity to ensure the pieces are placed together correctly, and endurance to speed up the process by working for longer shifts. Likewise, a perfomer would primarily use Diplomacy and/or Charisma checks, but perhaps they could insert in Dex checks for difficult instrument work (it takes awfully coordinated hands to play the piano), Int checks to recall musical scores from memmory, and maybe even a History or Local check to decide what songs the crowd would like (or what songs you should avoid). The sky's really the limit.

Personally, I like the idea of Primary and Tertiary skills. Primary skills work like 4E while Tertiary skills work more like 3.5 skills, in that you have a set number of skill points with which you can add ranks. Tertiary skills would probably be more flavorful choices (Profession, Craft, lesser knowledges, etc.)... I like this idea :)