The Campaign Builder's Guild

You know the type of dungeon-- a twisting, turning mass of corridors that just happens to look barely the like the relic of some civilization, but not really. It's dark, dank, and abandoned by now. It's also populated with every sort of creature you can imagine: usually in combinations that would realistically make no sense. Why have all of these different types of monsters, most of them territorial and intelligent enough that they might be afraid of each other, all taken up residence in such a confined space, just waiting for some adventurer to happen along?

Basically, I like a good old fashioned hack and slash "D&D dungeon" every once in a while, but I'd like to have some justification for why this atrocity exists. The old "an evil wizard just put them all there" is almost as trite as the dungeon itself, so-- no. Any other thoughts? :D

If you've ever been to the catacombs in Rome, they're your traditional Dungeon (probably populated by Zombies no less!).

The cool thing about D&D is that we have so many cultures and races that like to live underground. Dwarves, Gnomes, Goblins, Dromites, etc. Any of these could have created the 'dungeon' and over the years migrated away.

Honestly, the problem with D&D fantasy is that it hinges on there being older cultures and civilizations who created vast wonders then disappeared, leaving their wonders to be reclaimed by monsters and nature.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfHonestly, the problem with D&D fantasy is that it hinges on there being older cultures and civilizations who created vast wonders then disappeared, leaving their wonders to be reclaimed by monsters and nature.

I'm pretty sure that's not limited to D&D fantasy.  Or fantasy, for that matter.

Probably true...

One thing a friend of mine used when he didn't have time and had to just grab a randomized dungeon was that it was a test. It looked artificial in design because it was. The place was a massive arena for warriors to prove themselves in. The other intelligent humanoids in there were other groups of warriors (it was a fight to the death sort of thing). It worked out pretty well.

One possibility is the dungeon is a lair for one or two intelligent species, lets say Goblins and Kobolds.

These two races not being friendly are in a sort of arms race, they set up as many insane traps, import as many crazy monsters and generally make life as hazardous as possible. To keep the other out, now both races aren't too bright so things got out of control pretty quickly, so now there trapped in there as well, and its set for adventurers.

Another one is to give the dungeon a "theme".

A necromancer/shadowpriest would have all kinds of different undead and shadowfel creatures and stuff in the dungeon. Also things that wouldn't be bothered by these, so maybe plants and constructs. This gives a fair amount of variety in a dungeon while it still makes sense.

Yuan-Ti, with snakes, naga, some demons/devils.

Brown Dragon lair (4e) where the dragon stockpiles all kinds of interesting flavorful meats/plants, this means all kinds of rooms with any kind of monster or plant creature.

Temple devoted to an Element, under siege by an opposing cult, gives us elementals, cultists and minions, various elementally aligned creatures, constructs.

It isn't hard to rationalize it as long as you put some thought into it and try to stay on "theme".

Quote from: LlumOne possibility is the dungeon is a lair for one or two intelligent species, lets say Goblins and Kobolds.

These two races not being friendly are in a sort of arms race, they set up as many insane traps, import as many crazy monsters and generally make life as hazardous as possible. To keep the other out, now both races aren't too bright so things got out of control pretty quickly, so now there trapped in there as well, and its set for adventurers.

Another one is to give the dungeon a "theme".

A necromancer/shadowpriest would have all kinds of different undead and shadowfel creatures and stuff in the dungeon. Also things that wouldn't be bothered by these, so maybe plants and constructs. This gives a fair amount of variety in a dungeon while it still makes sense.

Yuan-Ti, with snakes, naga, some demons/devils.

Brown Dragon lair (4e) where the dragon stockpiles all kinds of interesting flavorful meats/plants, this means all kinds of rooms with any kind of monster or plant creature.

Temple devoted to an Element, under siege by an opposing cult, gives us elementals, cultists and minions, various elementally aligned creatures, constructs.

It isn't hard to rationalize it as long as you put some thought into it and try to stay on "theme".

I agree with this one. At one time I played an evil overlords game and I was a black dragon necromancer. My lair was full of skeletons that I and my clerics commanded as well as yuan-ti and lizardfolk who were loyal subjects (the lizardfolk even revering me as some sort of deity). That was a fun one since the dungeon was full of water (me being a black dragon and all) and was very much like a swamp but underground.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfProbably true...

Well, I mean, replace "monsters" with "animals or later people" in your statement and you've basically got the history of every civilization that ever died, ever.  Early Medieval Rome was a few thousand people huddled in the ruins of a city that once housed hundreds of thousands.  There are Egyptian temples and Khmer complexes that went over to the desert/jungle completely for hundreds of years.  There's Ubar, which would have remained a mythical lost city forever if it weren't for ground penetrating radar.  Sometimes we get along well with the ruins and they become pieces of national pride from millenia ago; sometimes we think they're offensive and blow them up (I'm looking at you, Taliban).  But "cultures and civilizations who created vast wonders then disappeared, leaving their wonders to be reclaimed by [people] and nature" is world history in a nutshell.  If we had cave-loving monsters on this planet you can bet they'd be crawling around in Abu Simbel and Angkor Wat after the original inhabitants had vanished.

Maybe I'm biased because my current campaign uses this theme heavily, but I don't see it as a "problem" at all, and certainly not something that's in any way specifically related to D&D.  People have been fascinated by this stuff since the first "explorers" existed.

I have no problem with other peoples re-populating older structures it's just the bog standard reason given to us by WotC for the existence of D&D Dungeons.

I have no problem with ruins at all, but what confuses me is some of the slipshod ecosystems that develop in those ruins. Sometimes, it's almost like:

"You see a lamb in this room, the ancestor of the sheep that was originally intended as food."
"Okay, what's in the next room?"
"In the next room, you see a lion pride..."

I'm not one for 'everything under the sun' in the Dungeon. I like my Dungeons to be built around a theme, such as Crazy Wizard and his Zombies or Trolls leading a Goblin Warren or Dragon and his Kobolds. Its all about making a micro society with in the dungeon.

Quote from: Halfling FritosI have no problem with ruins at all, but what confuses me is some of the slipshod ecosystems that develop in those ruins. Sometimes, it's almost like:

"You see a lamb in this room, the ancestor of the sheep that was originally intended as food."
"Okay, what's in the next room?"
"In the next room, you see a lion pride..."

Yes, the bitter legacy of random encounter tables.

I tend to run dungeons with a lot of attention paid to ecology.  If there are big differences between one room and another, it's often because they are exposed to different environments - in one, you have creatures coming up through an underground river, and in another the roof has caved in, allowing creatures to enter from the outside.  The more biomes you can give access to the dungeon the more "fronts" you can get between different kinds of life.

If done too much it gets confusing and unbelievable, but sometimes it's fine when magic is involved.  Maybe the original occupants did some unexpectedly volatile experiments with portals, so now you get lions and polar bears competing for food within the ruin itself.  Maybe the adventurers have to seal up the portals and stop the madness.  Having an ecology that makes real-world sense is good, but having one that makes fantasy sense can be just as good (or better).

Of course, I've also gamed with groups that couldn't care less about ecology of any kind.  Fun people, decent roleplayers - but the "biological realism" thing just doesn't matter to them.

Quote from: Halfling FritosI have no problem with ruins at all, but what confuses me is some of the slipshod ecosystems that develop in those ruins. Sometimes, it's almost like:

"You see a lamb in this room, the ancestor of the sheep that was originally intended as food."
"Okay, what's in the next room?"
"In the next room, you see a lion pride..."

"There is a bottle of 1999 Pio Cesare Barolo Ornato reserve sitting on the table in the center of the room. It seems like it hasn't been touched in years."
"Ok I open up the next door"
"Lord Vreeg is standing in front of you"
"Ok hold on... my suspension of disbelief just crumbled"

Thanks for your ideas. :)

Let's not let this become a debate as to whether this kind of dungeon is a good thing or not. I realize it has its flaws in the realm of "realism," but let's face it, gaming settings around here are not exactly based in reality, so just go with it. ;)

Quote from: sparkletwistbut let's face it, gaming settings around here are not exactly based in reality, so just go with it. ;)

Says you... I strive to make my systems like unto other earths complete with dna sequencing for each and every creature.