The Campaign Builder's Guild

For my blog i'm doing a review upon white wolf games in general, and in order to do so i need to summarize my problems with the company itself along with what i like about it.  And i wondered if anybody shared me views on them.  here it is (EvilElitest.blogspot.com)

Not really. I actually find myself disagreeing with most of the points you make. Your claims are frequently unsubstantiated and your logic is often rather dubious. I don't have much of an opinion on White Wolf at all, but you're really not making any arguments with enough strength to get me to believe you.

Your review's efficacy is further weakened by spelling and syntax errors ("there" instead of "their," improperly used ellipses, etc.), strange and sudden lapses into a much more conversational tone (which is fine in a blog, as long as it's consistently used), and a bad habit of making a statement in one sentence and going back to undermine that statement in the following sentence. It's akin to sabotaging your own work. I think a little proofreading would help improve your work immensely.

White Wolf sell themselves primarily as being "Not D&D?" Really? I thought they sold their games based on the underlying concept of playing as mythical "monstrous" beings in a world similar to the modern one, and tackling various dark occult themes within that context. A concept which, to my knowledge, was original in RPGs when White Wolf first started publishing their stuff... Obviously you have access to some insider knowledge I'm not privy to.

NOTE: I'm not a huge fan of White Wolf, I just think you're wrong. I played in a campaign that mixed Vampire and Werewolf in the edition before the current one, and while it was one of the best gaming experiences I've had, I'm inclined to think that it was due more to the GM than the game system or setting, neither of which are entirely to my taste. Not that they're bad, though - quite the opposite. My taste just lies in other areas.

I pretty much agree with Luminous Crayon.  Disliking White Wolf is fine, but you're pretty scathing in your review without significant citation or consistency to drive your points home.  Ironically, the same spelling and grammatical errors that distract in White Wolf products are present in your criticism.  The off-site example you provide doesn't strike me as condescending or demeaning, and was probably a moderately successful marketing strategy designed to win over those players who already felt alienated by the release of 4.0e.  *shrug*

I'm going to have to agree. You're hitting the nail, just not with a hammer - White Wolf has always had issues with their material, though marketing and the rather depressing settings they produce. The WoD system and most of the S&S material they've published is damn good (and I've considered the Storytelling system to be superior to d20 for quite a while now).

Your biggest issue it seems is to fix the organization and grammatical errors that everyone else is listing. There are some fairly valid points as far as I'm concerned - especially regarding the Exalted advertising - but right now your review isn't very polished.

Quote from: EladrisThe off-site example you provide doesn't strike me as condescending or demeaning, and was probably a moderately successful marketing strategy designed to win over those players who already felt alienated by the release of 4.0e. *shrug*

Yeah, this was a pretty brilliant marketing gambit, if you ask me. 4E hate is clearly a strong force-- for example, EvilElitest, it's what got you to grudgingly admit White Wolf's quality by the end of your review. Which really amounts to another serious problem: your conclusion has nothing to do with the merits (or meritlessness) of White Wolf and its products, and everything to do with how much you dislike D&D 4E. If you're purportedly reviewing White Wolf, that's kind of a big deal.

Honestly, I've seen more arrogance and pissant-ery from D&D crowds (regardless of edition) than I have ever seen from White Wolf.

I have to agree with White Wolf that their products are not WotC because, they aren't. The story telling system is a much more interactive & communal system than D&D. This is due to the simple fact that one (or god forbid an entire group) can fall into the mindset of 'I rolled a 16, do I hit?.' That isn't to say D&D can't be communal, some of my favorite sessions have been D&D sessions but, in my experience, D&D is far too focused on combat and not Role Playing, which makes the system more prone to basic math than the Story Telling system.  

I found your blog very anti-White Wolf and very combative but, that's what blogs typically do, so c'est la vie.

I have never played white wolf's stuff so I can't really comment on the validity of what you are saying. However, I will say that their graduate your game thing has nothing to do with hate or conceit. It is simply a brilliant tactical maneuver. Because in the end you must remember that they are both companies and money is the bottom line.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_wagerCygnus X-1[/url] is a black hole.)

I have a fairly low opinion of White Wolf since the "Everquest-2-d20-Incident" (as I call it). I know it was Swords & Sorcery who was responsible for this mess, but I blame WW as the parent company just like I blame Hasbro for things WotC botched up.

Releasing only 50% of the (imho very good) game system, promising the rest later, then wiping the forums, delaying information, wiping the forums again, and then - over 1 year later than promised (!) - releasing the other half of the system in a half-assed eBook for full price?

No frigging way this company will ever again see money from me. :-/

Edit:

Quote from: Elemental_ElfHonestly, I've seen more arrogance and pissant-ery from D&D crowds (regardless of edition) than I have ever seen from White Wolf. [...]

Then you haven't had the pleasure to deal with some Vampire LARPers. :D

Quote from: Elemental_Elf[...] This is due to the simple fact that one (or god forbid an entire group) can fall into the mindset of 'I rolled a 16, do I hit?.' [...]

And Werewolf (especially the oWoD editions), Exalted, and Scion can't devolve into a "I rolled 7 successes, do I hit?" fest? ;)

Quote from: brainfaceI like 4e dude. Don't become the smug rpg-fan you critized earlier. :) You can dislike a system without the system being intrinsically bad.
(Seriously, I like 4e for it's simplicity, you dislike it for it's simplicity.

Ditto. I was never a big fan of any D&D system pre 4e, but I see it's mindset as being a vast improvement.

And I kind of like WW, too.

Quote from: NomadicI have never played white wolf's stuff so I can't really comment on the validity of what you are saying. However, I will say that their graduate your game thing has nothing to do with hate or conceit. It is simply a brilliant tactical maneuver. Because in the end you must remember that they are both companies and money is the bottom line.

&^%&* yes.  and differentiation is rule #1 in marketing.  What are they supposed to say, "We're smaller and worth a look, even though the game most people play is really good", or maybe that is still too confrontational?

and EE, I really applaud all the effort and time that goes into your review and in making your blog look sharp.  I disagree with much of your characterization of the game in question, however.  I think that that they actually follow Vreeg's #1 rule of game and setting design quite well, and that is,
"Make sure that the system used matches the style of game you want to play, or the setting WILL end up matching the system."

And while they do try to market themselves to a more sophisticated gamer, the insertion of curse words and a little sex and drugs (and Demon worship...??) has little or nothing to do with it. That seems a very 'outside-looking-in' view of maturity.  
[spoiler=synonyms] there are more direct terms I could have used than 'outside-looking-in view of maturity', but I avoided them on purpose.[/spoiler]
They try to market their system as a storytelling-biased roleplaying system, not merely a combat/adventuring roleplaying system.  It is the overall focus of the game, not the minutia.
While I may be once again opening myself up to deserved castigation by my generalization, most of our younger days as a player involve random combats loosely tied together, and as we continue to game and grow more sophisticated in our gaming and literary pursuits, the end-goal becomes more the story and the quality of the narrative.  

Quote from: Vreeg's BaroloThey try to market their system as a storytelling-biased roleplaying system, not merely a combat/adventuring roleplaying system.  It is the overall focus of the game, not the minutia.
While I may be once again opening myself up to deserved castigation by my generalization, most of our younger days as a player involve random combats loosely tied together, and as we continue to game and grow more sophisticated in our gaming and literary pursuits, the end-goal becomes more the story and the quality of the narrative.  

Ironically when I was young, many of the early games I ran were very, very combat light. Then I started playing with players with D&D experience (many older and supposedly more mature than the kids I had once run for) and they're like, "wait what do we fight and when?"

Much as I am inclined to agree that the story and narrative becomes the end (for me), I don't know if it's fair to assume that's a linear progression of maturity for all gamers. Or rather, I worry about the implication of such a statement, that those who do not seek story have not matured as gamers. I think a mature gamer may also look at gaming objectively and say, really the reason I'm doing this is for catharsis, so whether I get that through narrative, socialization, or being able to crack Monty Python jokes, that's the way to play.

Quote from: Phoenix

Quote from: Vreeg's BaroloThey try to market their system as a storytelling-biased roleplaying system, not merely a combat/adventuring roleplaying system.  It is the overall focus of the game, not the minutia.
While I may be once again opening myself up to deserved castigation by my generalization, most of our younger days as a player involve random combats loosely tied together, and as we continue to game and grow more sophisticated in our gaming and literary pursuits, the end-goal becomes more the story and the quality of the narrative.  

Ironically when I was young, many of the early games I ran were very, very combat light. Then I started playing with players with D&D experience (many older and supposedly more mature than the kids I had once run for) and they're like, "wait what do we fight and when?"

Much as I am inclined to agree that the story and narrative becomes the end (for me), I don't know if it's fair to assume that's a linear progression of maturity for all gamers. Or rather, I worry about the implication of such a statement, that those who do not seek story have not matured as gamers. I think a mature gamer may also look at gaming objectively and say, really the reason I'm doing this is for catharsis, so whether I get that through narrative, socialization, or being able to crack Monty Python jokes, that's the way to play.

In my experience I have found that the more a player grows in their role play gaming experience the more their ability to play those roles grows. It isn't about whether the role involves ug the ripped barbarian who does nothing but beat crap up, or jonathon timorlane the eccentric inventor who is looking for the meaning of life. It is about temporarily not acting like you and acting like a fictional character. Thats why a truly good RPer can make a game run so well, it feels like an awesome story flowing along naturally.

Quote from: Ra-TielThen you haven't had the pleasure to deal with some Vampire LARPers.

Excruciatingly[/i] maladroit.