The Campaign Builder's Guild

I played V:tM (White Wolf's vampire LARP) for 10 years and was storyteller for a 40-50 person LARP for 4 years.  It was a good time and some of my best gaming to date, though admittedly not my cup of tea anymore.  Stereotyping LARPers as condescending or even socially misfit is just as ignorant as any other form of prejudice.  If you seriously want to bash White Wolf, just quote any of Justin Achilli's ridiculous rants; my favorite appears in Freak Legion, a Black Dog book detailing fomori and other creatures of the Wyrm.  Everything you say is invalidated when you aim at the players.

That being said, I no longer use WW products for a host of reasons, but none of them include, "The guys I played with were totally full of themselves."  A role-playing game is as good as the people you choose to play it with, because you're playing at improvisational theater with a bunch of geeks no matter what dice you're rolling.

Quote from: EladrisI played V:tM (White Wolf's vampire LARP) for 10 years and was storyteller for a 40-50 person LARP for 4 years.  It was a good time and some of my best gaming to date, though admittedly not my cup of tea anymore.  Stereotyping LARPers as condescending or even socially misfit is just as ignorant as any other form of prejudice.  If you seriously want to bash White Wolf, just quote any of Justin Achilli's ridiculous rants; my favorite appears in Freak Legion, a Black Dog book detailing fomori and other creatures of the Wyrm.  Everything you say is invalidated when you aim at the players.

That being said, I no longer use WW products for a host of reasons, but none of them include, "The guys I played with were totally full of themselves."  A role-playing game is as good as the people you choose to play it with, because you're playing at improvisational theater with a bunch of geeks no matter what dice you're rolling.

Hear Hear

I haven't played a White Wolf Game, but I've read through some of their products, and it SEEMED like a pretty good system.

My biggest problem with your review is its repetitiveness.  You don't really go into any detail on anything, and you just go round in circles, saying they are arrogant, that they are different (but not THAT different), that they aren't any more mature, that they're arrogant, that they weren't better but are now because you don't like 4e, that they're arrogant, that they aren't any more mature, that they're arrogant . . .

I kept hoping it wouldn't be much longer, because I was bored of hearing the same non-arguments repeated again and again.

Quote from: EladrisThat being said, I no longer use WW products for a host of reasons, but none of them include, "The guys I played with were totally full of themselves."  A role-playing game is as good as the people you choose to play it with, because you're playing at improvisational theater with a bunch of geeks no matter what dice you're rolling.

"A role-playing game is as good as the people you choose to play it with,..."  
Hmm.  I think Eladris just helped me re-write Vreeg's 3rd rule of gaming, 'cause that is much more clear and positive than how I've done it in the past.  (I think I once wrote this as, "Sucky players inevitably create a sucky game".  I was a little pissy at the time....)

"...because you're playing at improvisational theater with a bunch of geeks no matter what dice you're rolling."  
Yeah, that's how it should be.  

a few points
1) Why do people call me anti White Wolf?  I concede later that the company is really good once they get there arrogance and snobbish tendencies out of the way and I liked Swords and sorcery.  They do have some horridly sloppy organization.  
2) That marketing thing was horrible.  Its just White wolf showing themselves off as a bunch of snide jerks.  I'm not going to say that D&D 3E is a better game than exalted, through i'm also not going to say visa versa.  There very similar once you get down to it.  So White Wolf saying that there game is the advanced RPG is absurdly arrogant.  And it wasn't directed at 4E (were you could make a valid argument there), it was directed at 3E, which is about on part with Exalted.  Thats just arrogant.
3) The thing is, the two systems are really kinda the same.  I mean, there are niche differences obviously.  But they follow each other very closely.  Most of the "story telling hints" that are given in Exalted and WoD are really just kinda things i've always taken for granted, and in no way go against the D&D ideals.  While i applaud WW for working towards storytelling over combat, they don't really do so any more than pr 4E D&D.  I mean that the I mean, really, WW claims to maturity are really only validated is if D&D is nothing more than an hack and slash game......which it kind is now that we have 4E, but hey.  So they promote the idea of "being better' when they really are hauntingly similar.  My point is that 3E isn't a total hack fest with no focus on anything but combat (4E is more like a niche game thats aimed soly on combat).  So WW's claim of being more story based seem.....off
4) Um, for those who say i'm Anti Niche games, I comment in the article about there making niche games and not judging them based upon that
5) and i've never said that White Wolf is a bad company and make bad products (Exalted and Changling are pretty fun).  Nor that Wizards is an ideal one.  Just that they are far from an ideal perfect system they promote themselves to be
6) Call me crazy, but i don't think the Storysystem game actually is better when it comes to story telling.  I actually think its kinda limiting.  But i'll get into that when i move onto World of Darkness
7) yes it is lacking in terms of details, because i've going to review the specific games over a course of time.  I'll go into specifics there

Quote from: EvilElitestThat marketing thing was horrible.  Its just White wolf showing themselves off as a bunch of snide jerks.  I'm not going to say that D&D 3E is a better game than exalted, through i'm also not going to say visa versa.  There very similar once you get down to it.  So White Wolf saying that there game is the advanced RPG is absurdly arrogant.  And it wasn't directed at 4E (were you could make a valid argument there), it was directed at 3E, which is about on part with Exalted. Thats just arrogant.

Ok I am just going to be really blunt here and say that you're wrong on this. I have worked for companies in the same boat as them. It has nothing to do with them being snide, arrogant, or hateful. Money is the bottom line and they simply found another way to extend that bottom line to other people by playing to their competitors perceived weaknesses.

You need to be specific. Both in your blog, and in your thread responses. "Be Specific" is rule number one, and if you break it, you are wasting your time.

Quote from: evilelitest.blogspot.comTheir motto is 'We aren't Wizards' and their entire game system strives to have a different feel than D&D.

they consider me and other D&D players the unwashed masses of the RPG world while the players of their games are the sophisticated elite.[/quote]What is most annoying about White Wolf is their self satisfied attitude that they are the bringers of RPG story telling enlightenment, and that all other games are shallow pastimes for immature wimps[/quote]particular games[/i] yet. They're criticizing you for making wild and incendiary claims that you make no effort whatsoever to defend.

Here is a penny's worth of free advice. Did you notice how many people have replied to your thread? Every single one of them took the time to read your blog and to tell you what they thought about it. (Remember: they are not ganging up on you. You asked them to do this.) When so many people are saying that there are problems with the way you are presenting your ideas, the correct response is not to get all defensive and write out a scattershot reply that doesn't really address what they are saying. The correct first step is to consider whether or not they might have a point.

Remember also that the reason why people here reply to anybody's work, whether it's a long-running campaign world or a blog entry, is to help its author improve it. This thread is no exception. If you would listen, you might actually benefit.

I hope you have found this post helpful. If you like, I can take some time later to go through your blog post in a similar way, sentence by sentence, pointing out which ideas are sound, which claims need evidence to support them, where the dubious leaps of logic are that should be corrected, and where the typos, misspelled words, and grammatical errors are. Then, your second draft can be dramatically improved. Just let me know if this is what you would like me to do. (Otherwise, I won't do it. I know this sort of proofreading can be bitter medicine to take, and frankly, I'm not sure that's what you are interested in.)

Yours cordially,
-LC

Quote from: Luminous CrayonRemember also that the reason why people here reply to anybody's work, whether it's a long-running campaign world or a blog entry, is to help its author improve it.

I would even venture to say that the primary purpose of the CBG is to criticize each others work. This is a forum to post your stuff so that you can get constructive criticism and feedback on it (and thus improve what you have).

Sure it is most certainly hard to accept criticism, but if you can't, then why are you here? We are akin to a collection of variously talented and focused critics who have sat down to partake of a meal that you have prepared. We swilled your material around a bit like a fine wine, tasted bits here and there to see how it meshed and then got back to you on the overall quality of the meal set before us. Was it good? Does it need more spice? Do the various pieces mesh well together? Most importantly, was cabbage involved?

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: 8px2[/size], this is marketing.  And the fact that they are still in the black says some part of the publc agrees with them.  
No one calls BMW absurdly arrogant or a bunch of snide jerks for their tagline of, "The Ultimate Driving Machine"...but that is the automobile equivalent of what you are complaining about.

Just a side note, Wizards is not White Wolf's only competitor, just the biggest one. An argument should take into account that their are other alternatives to D&D (Shadowrun being a big one, and until recently Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, R.I.P.).

And that's not even counting indies and small companies.

Quote from: EEBut with the release of 4th Edition D&D, I'm going to have to actually agree with the claims that White Wolf makes better games. Wizards went and made White Wolf's fantasy of superiority a reality by making an edition that seems to be based upon White Wolf's negative portrayals of their game as simplistic and primitive.  So for all my grievances with White Wolf, I'm going to have to join the fans that hold it up as a superior system, and I'm going to have to admit that they make a better product.

Next, Exalted.  Oh and for the Record, Changing the Lost is Freaking AWSOME.

(Note, I was also hindered as I got Silent Hill 2 and Portal for Christmas, and do you honestly expect me to write when I could be playing those?  I mean seriously now).[/quote]
this goes on the "How not to..." list under "...end an essay." and "...be taken seriously."
sorry for the ranting.

Quote from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHY8NKj3RKsYou can even roleplay minesweeper.[/url]

Quote from: NomadicYou can even roleplay minesweeper.

Lol! You win the thread. :D

Nomatic, i think you misunderstand.  I understand why they are doing it, to make money, I don't think anybody disagrees with that.  My point is what they are saying, not why they are saying it.  It is basically White Wolf saying "we are better than 3rd Edition, buy from us" so it certainly falls under my point about insulting and rude

LC
1) Yes i did.  I also read the conclusion.  IE, that White Wolf is not a bad company, nor do they product inferior products, but they aren't the shining beacon of perfect game design that the've tried so hard to display themselves as.  Not that they are bad, just you need to get past there attitude.  
2) Thats a bit of a strawman isn't it?  I mean, isn't that just taking the whole issue and boiling it down to a single metaphor to twist the entire argument to your purpose?  maybe i'm just being sensitive, but i feel like your missing the point entirely.  I'm not talking about the White Wolf people personally, i don't know them so I can't judge them, i'm talking about there product.  I have a lot of beefs with North and South as a show but in the end I'll still admit its a good show.  
3a) Actually it mostly back fired.  Pro 4E people got pissed, people who liked 3E got pissed (because it was directed at 3E, not 4E) and it just made Exalted look snobbish.  They should have let Exalted stand on its own merit, because ironically enough its a pretty good game.  I mean, maybe i'm speaking only from the OOTS board, but hte reaction there was pretty intensely negative, even from White Wolf fans.  I mean, Wizard's adds aren't much better, but they aren't as insulting just......stupid mostly
3b) and there reasoning aside, that doesn't make it any less of a snobbish "take that".  Which is my point
4a) I've said i'll get more into that when i review there games specifically (exalted first edition is up next, very interesting) but in spark note terms, basically they have a story telling system (which is really pretty close to the same except for the scene thing), they use traits instead of feats/skills, and they don't use the class system.  Oh there are other differences surely, and more when you get into the specifics, but playing there games doesn't feel so much "Dude, this is so out there, I'd never think of this" and more in the "Well its different, but i still get the idea.  The basis premise of game play is the same, and dispite all of WW claims, the use of drama can still be used in the same manner quite easily.  
4b) Dyslexia
5) Check
6) Well, maybe i'm being elitist, but the things they tend to point out are stuff that you'd see summed up in a paragraph in some other systems, and aren't really that radical.  Make sure your players are comfortable playing this game, duh.  Make sure they design interesting realistic characters, well yeah.  Make sure you understand the tone and atmosphere of the setting, ok i think i know that.  Make sure you play to make everybody have fun, alright.  Only you know how to play your own game, yeah.  Its nothing radical
7) Depends on who you ask.  According to White Wolf, D&D is a generally hack and slash dungeon running game, while if your into deep epic story telling White Wolf is for you (see add, and most of there book's introductions).  But the thing is.....that really isn't the case.  There is at least as much story telling material in 2E and 3E D&D, and White Wolf isn't somehow being totally out of the box here.  Again, they aren't bad, they just '˜that' much better than Wizards.  The D&D ideals, at least in 3E, is a focus on general world stimulation, and trying to accommodate as many play styles as possible for as many people as possible.  Does it work?  Well'¦'¦..no but they try.   They aren't a primitive game compared to White Wolf through I wouldn't call them superior by any means.  
8) I feel like your missing the point here, or are deliberately screwing the point to make a general personal attack, which seems a little odd.  I'm kinda surprised how you came to that conclusion, it seems a little out of place through.  My point is this, White Wolf has claimed that they produce more mature story telling games '
White Wolf is giving away free copies of the award-winning Exalted Second Edition! We're offering you an opportunity to break out of the Dungeons & Dragons cycle, and graduate to a new kind of fantasy game. We're confident that once you step up and experience Exalted's world of epic fantasy and larger-than-life heroes, you won't ever want to search another 10 x 10 room again.
Why play a rehash of the same old game, when you could be exploring Epic Fantasy Re-Imagined all summer?'
And that's not even going into there claims to greater maturity shown in the WoD, and to a lesser extent Exalted books (which will again, be presented later).  They are claiming that they mare more mature games.  Well, if there games are suppose to be more mature, to check that claim, you have to compare them to the other company.  I mean, that's basic common sense.  And so, White Wolf only makes more mature games that have better storytelling aspects if Wizards makes very immature games that lack any story focus.  So of course you need a comparison.  I feel like your just being insulting for its own sake, through maybe I'm just being a little paranoid, but using a total out of context response like that seems very hostile.  Which seems to be kinda hurting your own point?  IS there no reason why we can't address this in a civilized manner?
9) You can advertise certainly, but if you act egotistical and snobbish in your adds, you are basically being'¦..egostical and snobbish.  There is some general sense of civility I like to see form companies, through they often don't show it (Wizards included).  But wanting to make money doesn't make there statements less insulting.  And for there being similar, well it because there games use a very similar approach to gaming.  The storytelling system's virtues aren't these radical unique ideas that nobody else has thought of, focus on drama, character development and storytelling isn't something that restricted only too there games.  
10a) That seems to be a bit of a double standard.  I mean, your yelling at me for not being specific, and yet now your just insulting my assertion without any backing.  I mean, in all honestly, I really don't give a damn what you laugh at, as long as you provide some actual evidence to back your point, and yet your just kinda being rude.  I mean, that's semi baiting there to a limited extent
10b) Thank you.  I'm dyslexics so editing is hard for me
11) Well when it comes to 3E, white wolf's claims of being more focused on story seem to be mostly hot air. They aren't really more story based, they just do it differently (weather there methods are better or not is a matter of debate).  With 4E, there pretty solidly justified because there isn't any real storytelling focus there.
12)  Actually I was referring to the thing about 'Each to his own design' that Veerge mentioned.  As I say in the article, I'm not against them for being niche
13)  Graduate your game, Exalted main book introduction (more so 2E), the story telling section to an extent.   World of Darkness introduction, and there storytelling section.  
14) Why would you want too? Can't we settle this in a civil manner.  I mean, you can disagree with me fine, but why do we have to be personally insulting?
15) That seems like an odd twist of standards actually.  I mean, its just as much a generalization as any, I haven't gone into any detail about the storytelling system.  It seems like your only focusing on it because you possibly agree with it.  Its just as much a generalization as anything else
16) If this was my final word you'd be right.  But this is the first part in a series of articles.  These are my preconceived notions of White Wolf before reviewing, and these are the themes I'm looking out for as I go through.  I've found some of the more vocal fans to be snobbish at times, there advertising is very arrogant, and there general claims of superiority irritating.  Its something that will come up in future books (no point in repeating myself).  I figured it would be better to get my bias with White Wolf out of the way before getting into the details, because other wise it was going to be coming up again and again.
17) Ok, I've had enough.  What is wrong with you?  I mean, call me overly southern here, but your being insulting, making personal attacks, and making some rather unbaked claims.  I mean, you call it an anti White Wolf article to the extreme (first post) ignoring the sections where I've said complimentary things about them (See the second paragraph on maturity, Sword and Sorcery, there focus on fluff) and taking claims out of context.  I'm not upset about your disagreeing, I'm an opinionated person with some radical views, but I generally expect some decency when being talked to (which other people here have proven to do well).  Is rudeness really necessarily in any way?  Can't we settle this calmly and cordially, not in an belittling and insulting way? I mean, its just rudeness and that's quite offensive.  I like feedback and I like the offer, but if personal insults are somehow a sign an improving work ethic, then you can count me out.  Maybe I'm misjudging you, but your are being very heavy handed with your critiquing here.  
Nomatic (again) I like criticism.  I just like it to be handled in a more decent way rather than semi juvenile yelling.  I'm not against being criticized, through I admit I came here mostly for discussion.  I don't appreciate condescension, its bad form and also bad in the long run in terms of wanting to inspire improvement.  
Vreego- Yes it is about making money.  But that doesn't change the fact that is what they claim.  
Phoenix- Actually I totally forgot about Shadowrun, good point.  I'll fix that tomorrow.
Scholar-
1a) Actaully I forgot about Gurps to, fair enough
1b) Is being insulting really necessarily?  
1c) Hmmm?  I don't differenced them based upon simplicity.  I personally think the storytelling system is somewhat simplistic. Not in a bad way necessarily, just not as opened ended is a prefer.  WW isn't more simple than Wizards, through I wouldn't say they are better either
2) Because 4E has no fluff really.  It has some platitudes, and some token mention, but there really isn't any role playing.  And don't use the fallacy that 'you can make it up' because I can make up crunch.  White Wolf's claims of superiority in terms of storytelling is actually quite justified here, when they say they focus more on story, they are basically right.  I don't dislike WW, I put them on part with 3E Wizards, in some ways better in some ways worst, but I put there dedication firmly above 4E's simplicity
3) Actually there is a good deal of fluff in the PHB and DMG of 3E, at least on the topics that WW tend to address in there core books.  Oh sure there are setting/rule differences, but its still there.  
4) I'm not saying Sword and Sorceries are better than 3E in terms of specific settings, I like Ebberon and FR.  I just like them in terms of fluff when it comes to non setting specific books.  I also like there settings
5) You can make an RPG based on a video game and add nothing to it, which WW actually don't do, they add a lot of content to the setting and puts a lot more detail into it.  Which is rather impressive.
Thank you for your commentary, its been interesting.  no personal offense is meant on people, just some of there use of criticizing.
From
EE

Quote from: EvilElitest(everything else)

Nobody is insulting anyone, well until you started tearing into him right there for giving an honest (brutal, but honest) review. You have been shown what is wrong with your article and how to go about fixing it. Accepting the criticism and using it as a base from which to make your work better is the first step here, not flying off the handle or otherwise disregarding the people that gave the criticism. If you can't, then again... why the heck are you here?