The Campaign Builder's Guild

[blockquote[SG525]I apologize in advance for derailing this...
[/blockquote]

And I certainly helped - hence the move
'¦
[blockquote[SM]It should not be difficult to understand why I would take offense at being told to "get over" something which is going on right now.[/blockquote]

[blockquote[SG525]Really? Native American lands are being taken by force right now? I know something, I would hope, about the legal debacle, but I was talking about the initial push westward.[/blockquote]

Any time they want something. As with the gold rush, this is usually mining access. Probably the best example and a little more info about current activities Troop are rarely in evidence but F-4s have been used to haze livestock herds (very low fly-overs to scatter the animals) in the joint use lands.

 Sorry, I'll have to continue later - at work and dealing with a drunk resident just before going home. . . :hammer:

'¦
As for being civil - I'm trying very hard to keep my temper here and will point out that I did not use the word among my (biological) father's people which basically translates as "rabid beast" even though I am, if not quite that pissed, certainly that disgusted.

I'm really not trying to piss you off. I apologize if I am. Understand where I'm coming from. In Wisconsin, as well as Oklahoma (my roomate's home state), we have not had good relations with Indians.

'¦
SG, yes you are mistaken - you are making it ever more clear that you have no inkling of the issue(s) which I initially raised.

The problem I have is that I can't find a clear, concise statement of what that issue is. All I ever get from Indians is a sense of dissatisfaction and, from many, a desire to 'get off their land.' Something which is ridiculous (I was born here too bub.)

'¦
The implication your last statement carries with it would be like saying that the Irish people didn't exist while Ireland was ruled by England, that Jews did not exist until Israel was (re)founded or that the Tibetan people do not exist now.

Politically, they didn't[Don't]. Note 'nationality,' not 'ethnicity.'

'¦
The whole matter of legal cases regarding the (current) honoring and enforcement of treaty terms (often Tribal Hunting and Fishing Rights cases) gets very strange and complicated - because here we are looking at entities which the US Gov't does acknowledge as Sovereign States when it suits them. That's not a facetious statement, Tribal Sovereignty under US policy exists primarily on paper outside of a relatively few specific court rulings enforcing it.

See, this is what annoys me. Either one or the other, but not both. I understand it's not your(referring to the Natives) fault, but still.

Are there any Native nations recognized by anyone other than the country they reside in?
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
Badges:

I personally like the ideas presented here, granted, I cannot personally agree with some of the methods they once used.

Quote from: limetomI personally like the ideas presented here, granted, I cannot personally agree with some of the methods they once used.

Yeah not in favor of that proposal. It amounts to giving the natives trillions of dollars and allowing them their own de-facto nation-states. Yeah, not in favor of that at all. Its time for the wounds to be healed, the reparations to end and the whole of America to unite together.

Yeah, that's a bad idea. Giving them land equivalent to half the state of Texas, a significant portion of the GDP, and turning all Indians into foreigners in the US, governed by treaty, is a Bad idea, especially because they fail to determine what an Indian is. Hell, if they go loose enough, I'm Indian (1/32).

True, very true. I don't know, I can never wrap my heads around the point of a unitary state when you have such vocal ethnic minorities in lands that were once independent nations. the US should take a page out of Spain's handbook, throw up their arms and say 'enough is enough already!' I'm unsure why Washington is so against the idea, its not like America, even if it's split into multiple sovereign states, would not dominate the Federation. Their population alone would assure that...

Now one might ask 'but why change anything at all then?' My answer would be that, on a domestic front, Native Americans would once again have much, much more freedom. So really, its a win, win situation.

I see what you did there :P

Quote from: Snargash MoonclawTrue, very true. I don't know, I can never wrap my heads around the point of a unitary state when you have such vocal ethnic minorities in lands that were once independent nations. the US should take a page out of Spain's handbook, throw up their arms and say 'enough is enough already!' I'm unsure why Washington is so against the idea, its not like America, even if it's split into multiple sovereign states, would not dominate the Federation. Their population alone would assure that...

Now one might ask 'but why change anything at all then?' My answer would be that, on a domestic front, Native Americans would once again have much, much more freedom. So really, its a win, win situation.

But where you fail is the fact that the Natives are not looking to become multiple states, equal to all other states but rather autonomous territories within the bounds of the USA. The two cases are very different. Props for trying though.

On the one hand, it's commonly accepted international principle to acknowledge the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force."  On the other, irredentism has rarely been a force for good in the modern world.  I mean, who wasn't at some point a "once independent nation?"

We can argue all day about the right to self-determination, but I'm ultimately more interested in results - ameliorating social, political, and economic inequality in our state and our world.  I'm not certain how tribal sovereignty addresses those issues.

I'm with the carp. My main argument is that Indians ceased to be a sovereign nation when they were no longer able to control their borders.

Not to mention the essential incompatibilities of Western and Native cultures.

Western and Native cultures aren't that incompatible, unless by that you mean Western cultures comming along and doing a bit of genocide (or trying to)

Quote from: LlumWestern and Native cultures aren't that incompatible, unless by that you mean Western cultures comming along and doing a bit of genocide (or trying to)

I think he means property rights and a general outlook of traditional western and traditional native outlooks.

Around here, Natives have very little personal property. The reason being is that property is communal and controlled by the Tribe's local government. Meaning, at any time the tribe could force some one out of their home and allow another family/person in. Which, IMO, is one reason why the local reservations are such shanty towns, even though the tribes (as a whole) are fairly wealthy (though nothing as grandiose as the tribes that allow businessmen to build casinos on their land).

Honestly that just sounds too close to communism for an American to be comfortable with. Infrastructure is run by the Tribe, no big deal if they actually do it.

I personally think the tribes should just join everyone else and become normal Americans. Was manifest destiny wrong, most certainly. However, that is something that there is no going back on (at least not without creating another series of ongoing problems). This cycle of paying the tribes money for something done over a lifetime ago which just goes back into propping up a system that creates these shanty towns needs to stop. It is just my personal opinion that there will never be a solution to this until the tribes join the rest of us.

Quote from: NomadicIt is just my personal opinion that there will never be a solution to this until the tribes that still consider this a major issue join the rest of us.

Bold added, mine. Many tribes are actually quite fine with that.

Quote from: NomadicI personally think the tribes should just join everyone else and become normal Americans. Was manifest destiny wrong, most certainly. However, that is something that there is no going back on (at least not without creating another series of ongoing problems). This cycle of paying the tribes money for something done over a lifetime ago which just goes back into propping up a system that creates these shanty towns needs to stop. It is just my personal opinion that there will never be a solution to this until the tribes join the rest of us.

Or the white folks could go back to Europe.