The Campaign Builder's Guild

The state and the city need to run somehow: the town guard gets paid, the government builds roads and has a standing army.  Does the money come from the churches, from the guilds, from the merchants, from the tribes in the hills? The world and the authorities realistically need some way to make thier money.

And then, how does this influence game play?  How much does an average person make?  How much do they pay in taxes?  How much does the adventurer who comes into town pay to the state?  How does it get collected?  

Well, in the Rex tribe in the Bronze setting they don't really pay that much tax, they're just under the obligation to put up (house/feed/cloth) any member of the Seven Houses who happen to wander by. Now the magi of the houses know this, and they don't (usually) abuse the power, staying a couple nights at one home, then some more at another not placing a huge burden on any single home.

Most soldiers are levy, every takes a tour and is payed out of the resources gained while they're under arms. So the more they conquer, the more they get paid. The exception are the Seven Houses once again, who get first pick on all loot gathered.

Now over the years this has led to the Seven Houses becoming rather rich due to not paying for living expenses and getting the first pick of the loot. While the houses are wealthy they do tend to have to purchase and care for things ordinary people couldnt, war horses, stabling, mounts for bodyguards, rare materials, the specially forged khopesh.

The price of these things usually flows back to the tribe through specialized tribes people and from them to the regular people because they have to purcahse food and fodder and other mundane things they cannot do themselves.

The other complex bit is the Church which usually gets it money from military service (yes priests still have to serve their levy), donations from families they tend and what not. The clergy work hard and the tribes people know this, since they're the only ones who still talk directly to their god, and other gods if need be.

So, its not the best system, but it lets the money filter through the populace, slightly curbed by the cost of supporting the Seven Houses.

How much does a person make? Enough to support their family (so two parents make enough for them and roughly 3-5 children/grand parents). There's a bit of left over money to cover donations to the church (if you want a specific blessing, it doesn't hurt to pay for a priest to drop the hint) and maybe enough to cover surprises.

I've occasionally used gate tolls before ("it costs X to enter this town"), but in general I don't bother with taxes on PCs because it adds nothing.  Nothing interesting results from taxes (though conceivably you could come up with some tax-based adventure that wasn't a complete groaner).  Players tend to interpret taxes as an arbitrary loot grab; "you have too much stuff, the king demands a quarter of your takings from that dragon hoard."  Such grabs may be justified by the local economy, or the ruler's policies, or whatever, but in my experience it doesn't really affect how players perceive them.

My general assumption is that the adventurers operate outside the usual economic realm in which lords collect taxes in kind from the harvests of peasants and the goods of merchants.  Trying to appropriately tax a group that constantly zig-zags over borders, operates extensively in wilderness areas of dubious ownership, and traffics in a lot of stolen goods (even if they didn't steal them - how do you think the ogre tribe got that gold in the first place?) is bound to be a headache, both for the local rulers and the GM.

Quote from: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?65170Gloria--->[/url]

Quote from: Gloria-Assess taxation in Shimmer for the Privateers of Mobius. Count all windows, not just those that face the street. This will likely involve much wall-climbing and perhaps even the peeling back of hastily applied plaster, or the overcoming of magical spells that conceal windows from prying eyes. (No one likes to pay taxes, the rich who can afford magic to evade wish to avoid the impositions most of all.)

Wonderworld [/url] likewise revolves around taxation

In Lophius, a gang-based, quasi-feudal system of taxes operates in much the same way that modern organized crime organizations collect protection money.

Churches also collect tithes from their members in CE.  Mercantile cities like Skein and Crepuscle have trade tariffs and the like, making smuggling a potentially profitable venture.

QuoteTrying to appropriately tax a group that constantly zig-zags over borders, operates extensively in wilderness areas of dubious ownership, and traffics in a lot of stolen goods (even if they didn't steal them - how do you think the ogre tribe got that gold in the first place?

It is a tort of strict liability.[2] Examples are seen in cases where trees are cut down and the lumber hauled from the land by someone not having clear ownership; or removing furniture belonging to another from a cohabited dwelling, placing it in storage and not telling the owner of the whereabouts."

I always liked the idea of the Adventurer's being forced to get an 'Adventuring License,' which allows them the right to use deadly force on any 'enemy of the kingdom or its people' while out in the wilds between towns. The License would stipulate that the Adventurers give 1/6th of the bounty to the local ruler (who would then divide that into his share and the King's share).  Failure to report the 'earnings' and/or failure to give the 1/6th share would mark the Adventurer's as Bandits, and thus a legal mark for others with an Adventurer's License.

Of course it is fairly obvious that, if a local lord does not like the PCs, he can claim to have never received the share and thus mark the PCs as bandits. The obvious way to get around this little hitch would be to bribe the lord with a generous gift...

Further, I'm sure the local church would desire an equally generous gift in the form of a tithe, for was it not God's will manifest in the blades and magic of the Adventurer's that smote the evil doers and provided them with such a bounty?

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI always liked the idea of the Adventurer's being forced to get an 'Adventuring License,' which allows them the right to use deadly force on any 'enemy of the kingdom or its people' while out in the wilds between towns.

It's kind of silly that there's so many adventurers as to warrant something like this. Oh, scrath that, the entire concept of the 'adventurer' is pretty damn silly. Were I living in a RPG setting and had in my possession the kind of loot that would warrant a king's interest in taxing me, I sure as hell wouldn't go on picking fights with the random monster/warlord/crime lord/naughty wizard of the month. I'd spend my money on a nice little villa in the better part of town, a bunch of slaves to do all the menial household keeping tasks I'd never again be bothered with, a few nicer looking ones to warm my bed, a private guard unit to keep thieves and beggars out, and a collection of fine art to impress my guests. Should I ever need to worry about the random monster/warlord/crime lord/naughty wizard of the month for any reason, I'd just hire some fools to take care of the problem :-p

[blockquote=the iLLUMinated one]So, its not the best system, but it lets the money filter through the populace, slightly curbed by the cost of supporting the Seven Houses. [/blockquote]
Best system?  God no, it's horrible.  But being effective is really unimportant.  What is important is that it helps makes the setting work.  One of the reasons I have been so careful asbout my own law and taxes is that it helps built the versimilatude of the setting, because while they are a complication, they are the most realistic, and basic complication one can include into a game.
Everyone of us has or will pay taxes.  Everyone of us has dealt with the 'state' taking part of the money we earn or make.  Everytime we make a serious purchase, we deal with Sales Tax [note]except SD, and the fact that his state has no sales tax is the biggest politcal hot button in that state, so taxes are still critical there.[/note]  Benjamin Franklin famously said that only two things are sure in life, Death and Taxes.  And in the records of ancient egypt, all over the bible and Qur'an (they both particularly deal with usury), in Greek and Roman records ("Taxes are the sinews of the state'-Cicero), all over ancient Indian records and in the histories of Asia, there were taxes.  Feudal Europe and the Middle Ages that Followed, the original historical blueprint that most of the original RPG's were based on, is partially defined by fealty and the collection of tithes, tallage, aids, carucage,and others that goes with that.
The point to that rant is that if politics or money are part of your game, and you haven't really included taxes into it, you are ignoring one of most basic building blocks of versimilitude.

[blockquote=PC]Players tend to interpret taxes as an arbitrary loot grab; "you have too much stuff, the king demands a quarter of your takings from that dragon hoard." Such grabs may be justified by the local economy, or the ruler's policies, or whatever, but in my experience it doesn't really affect how players perceive them.[/blockquote]  It all depends on when you introduce the players to the tax code.  If the PCs find out about this after they have been around long enough to graduate to Dragon Hoards, they will probably respond as you describe.  If you've set this in place as part of the setting from the beginning, it will totally change how the Players percieve this part of the game.  And like any other part of the game, the smart players will find a way to turn this to their advantage.  I'll tell you right now, in-game taxation makes the underworld of a setting a LOT more important... :)

Light Dragon, thank YOU for pointing out those important legal terms, since I have not really addressed them in my game.  I think I have some work to do on these concepts.

Steerpike, I was wondering if you'd answer, due to the complexity of having the very different cities and all the power-structures.  I am not surprised about the religeous part.  What form or forms of currency are used in CE?

[blockquote=Eelf]I always liked the idea of the Adventurer's being forced to get an 'Adventuring License,' which allows them the right to use deadly force on any 'enemy of the kingdom or its people' while out in the wilds between towns. The License would stipulate that the Adventurers give 1/6th of the bounty to the local ruler (who would then divide that into his share and the King's share). Failure to report the 'earnings' and/or failure to give the 1/6th share would mark the Adventurer's as Bandits, and thus a legal mark for others with an Adventurer's License.

Of course it is fairly obvious that, if a local lord does not like the PCs, he can claim to have never received the share and thus mark the PCs as bandits. The obvious way to get around this little hitch would be to bribe the lord with a generous gift...

Further, I'm sure the local church would desire an equally generous gift in the form of a tithe, for was it not God's will manifest in the blades and magic of the Adventurer's that smote the evil doers and provided them with such a bounty? [/blockquote]
I love how totally medieval this sounds, and how well it would work in so many games.  You make it very clear and easy to see how this could be part of the political side of the game, and I could see this being the 'welcome to the Big Leagues' notice to a group of adventurers.  

QuoteIt all depends on when you introduce the players to the tax code.  If the PCs find out about this after they have been around long enough to graduate to Dragon Hoards, they will probably respond as you describe.  If you've set this in place as part of the setting from the beginning, it will totally change how the Players percieve this part of the game.  And like any other part of the game, the smart players will find a way to turn this to their advantage.  I'll tell you right now, in-game taxation makes the underworld of a setting a LOT more important... :)

were[/i] introduced early on.  I found it was nonetheless never perceived by my characters as anything beyond a burden, and added nothing to either my campaign or player experience.

As I said before, I can't rule out the possibility that people could design decent adventures around taxation, but I've never found it to be any use.  I could be ultra-realistic and give my characters the flu every now and then, for instance, but that adds nothing to the experience, and I feel the same way about taxes.

Quote from: Ghostman

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI always liked the idea of the Adventurer's being forced to get an 'Adventuring License,' which allows them the right to use deadly force on any 'enemy of the kingdom or its people' while out in the wilds between towns.

It's kind of silly that there's so many adventurers as to warrant something like this. Oh, scrath that, the entire concept of the 'adventurer' is pretty damn silly. Were I living in a RPG setting and had in my possession the kind of loot that would warrant a king's interest in taxing me, I sure as hell wouldn't go on picking fights with the random monster/warlord/crime lord/naughty wizard of the month. I'd spend my money on a nice little villa in the better part of town, a bunch of slaves to do all the menial household keeping tasks I'd never again be bothered with, a few nicer looking ones to warm my bed, a private guard unit to keep thieves and beggars out, and a collection of fine art to impress my guests. Should I ever need to worry about the random monster/warlord/crime lord/naughty wizard of the month for any reason, I'd just hire some fools to take care of the problem :-p

My friend, that reasoning is covered in 'The Big Book of Reasons to Adventure,' filled under the Bilbo Baggins Chapter!

As for your comment on Adventurers, its just a design conceit on the part of the game. Adventurers are indeed a silly/unrealistic concept unless one looks at them as roving mercenaries who are hired to venture forth into the wilds and slay people/creatures society deems unfit to live. The Adventurers are partially paid by the person who hired them but the bulk of the reward is paid via the loot acquired from those the adventurers slay. It's no different than a King paying a band of mercenaries a small down-payment to fight for him promising them then first dibs on the loot in a conquered city.

Quote from: Lord Vreeg[blockquote=Eelf]I always liked the idea of the Adventurer's being forced to get an 'Adventuring License,' which allows them the right to use deadly force on any 'enemy of the kingdom or its people' while out in the wilds between towns. The License would stipulate that the Adventurers give 1/6th of the bounty to the local ruler (who would then divide that into his share and the King's share). Failure to report the 'earnings' and/or failure to give the 1/6th share would mark the Adventurer's as Bandits, and thus a legal mark for others with an Adventurer's License.

Of course it is fairly obvious that, if a local lord does not like the PCs, he can claim to have never received the share and thus mark the PCs as bandits. The obvious way to get around this little hitch would be to bribe the lord with a generous gift...

Further, I'm sure the local church would desire an equally generous gift in the form of a tithe, for was it not God's will manifest in the blades and magic of the Adventurer's that smote the evil doers and provided them with such a bounty? [/blockquote]
I love how totally medieval this sounds, and how well it would work in so many games.  You make it very clear and easy to see how this could be part of the political side of the game, and I could see this being the 'welcome to the Big Leagues' notice to a group of adventurers.  

I think its one of the easier ways to help give even standard D&D worlds a little more verisimilitude. It also forces the PCs to recognize the legitimate authority of the area, if only partially, and thrusts them into the world of politics. It also gives social encounters some of the inherent weight that combat encounters possess.

Of course in Kaidan, I'm borrowing the tax system from feudal Japan. Basically everything is measured in rice. One Koku is apparently some given amount of rice equal to amount required to feed one man for a year - there is some exact amount decreed by the Imperial Court. Although there is a form of currency, that is primarily used by the lower castes in various transactions for the purchasing of goods and services. Rather than a gold standard, its a rice standard. The least currency something like the penny, buys one bowl of rice. Thus transactions could be measured on bowls of rice numerically.

The tax requirement for a given farm, fishing boat or other industry is accessed once within each province during the provincial lord's lifetime (since most daimyo are actually undead, this usually means forever). No matter what the environmental conditions as the time of accessment, the defined amount is the same year to year in perpetude. Which means if the accessment was done during a "bumper crop" year, a given farm will be struggling to meet their tax burden most of the time. If accessed under normal conditions there are times when the tax seems "tolerable", while other years mean selling your daughters to yakuza for prostitution to get by.

A Typical small farm produces 100 koku of rice per year and taxed accordingly.

Those lucky farmers that live near any stretch of forest areas often work secret rice fields hidden from the tax man, that allow them to more easily survive from year to year, though getting caught is lethal to the entire family.

Taxes in Kaidan sit at an ugly 40% of annual income which is very steep. 10% going to the local ruler, 20% going to Shogunate coffers and 10% to the Imperial Court. Despite being high, it has been that way forever. Peasant revolts occur, but often for reasons beyond the tax burden. Most Kaidanese are used to the high tax, and though grumble as anyone else, they recognize it as a necessary evil to maintain the empire.

Samurai are paid an annual stipend by his lord, payment is based on rank among his peers serving that lord. Most samurai are paid little more than the expected profits of a simple farmer, so not very much at all. Its the rights and respect of being a samurai, along with ancestral weapons that belong to him by heritage, while armor, supplies and mount is provided by the noble ruler he serves. Some samurai are granted land and in some cases tillable land, which means they are now subject to a tax burden based on accessed rice quantities to his lord. The provincial lords owe the rice tax measured in millions of Koku to the Imperial Court and Shogunate.

The lands of a typical "landed" samurai earns 10,000 koku per year or greater. A great samurai, hatamoto bureaucrat, though not a provincial lord earns 100,000 koku per year. While a provincial lord has a minimum income of 1 million koku, with the wealthiest earning 20+ million koku per year. Then those numbers are taxed each annum.

There have been lesser landed samurai who turned to fishing to augment meeting their tax burden, overtime, this too could not help them meet it, so they turned ronin, and as seafarers, now became pirates (pirate princes seem to owe a tax burden, however.)

I could actually see adventures whose true goal is to earn enough extra booty to pay the tax burden and save farm families from more desparate acts. Though I'd hope that wasn't a constant issue in the game.

Since players can ultimately play any caste and a variety of castes within a given adventure party. Their tax burden is based on who they are so may very with each of them. Or actually be outlaws and not pay a tax at all.

Meanwhile temples, shrines and monastaries expect tithes as well.

GP

Gamer Printshop: Wow. That's interesting as hell! I would love to play in a dystopian feudal Japan game.

I think some groups will see taxes (and most likely, other means of verisimilitude as well) as a burden, and others will see it as a joy. I know my group will be a little thrilled by the prospect of cheating taxes. And you can't cheat them if they're not there!

I really like Polycarp!'s idea, though. I think I'll throw a write-up like this at my players:

Taxes are usually collected in an "At The Door" fashion; cross a bridge, a river, a narrow pass, a city gate, etc (some kind of choke point) and the controlling organization will ask for money. Usually the organization collecting the money is the local government and their militia. Large governing bodies and soldiers can't be bothered with taxes and economics; local Dukes and Barons just give a percentage of their totals to the Crown. Alternatively, they tax goods as they come in, as they are shipped out, and/or as the product is purchased by the consumer. It is also not unheard of (especially in large cities where the taxes are rather high) for there to be a black market where goods are still overpriced, but slightly cheaper than state-sanctioned goods. There is also sometimes a means to "Snake" into a city, or to traffick oneself illegally for a similarly reduced price. Both these actions run the risk of arrest and conviction, punishments usually ranging from damages and fines to prison time.

GP, that was great.  Attaching it to rice (or salt, or any other essential) makes it tangible, and places the peasantry solidly at the bottom of your setting.

The afects of this high rate (I have coubtries where syndicates are taxed that high, but not individuals) were particularly illuminating.

In my new setting, which I currently forget the name of despite having worked on it semi-regularly for the past few weeks... Na Bantu, that's it. Yes, anyway. In my new setting, the world's pretty much regularly organised into city-states, at least on the surface, with almost no life outside the cities, although resettlement programs are under way. Taxation tends to be mostly applied to guilds and richer individuals, who then raise the price of their goods (thus, in a way, taxing the peasantry), although in some cities, they do have enrolled citizens and censuses which allow them to tax everyone. Adventurers are unlikely to be taxed unless they become particularly rich.

In Wonders, on the other hand, all Houses in the islands (i.e. Duer familio-political bodies) are taxed based on how much they own, paying tribute to the King. The Houses are left to themselves to decide how to acquire the money, but since most of them own and pay for the running of farms and other businesses, they tax their peasantry. They are permitted to tax the peasantry as much as they want, although said peasantry can generally leave their masters since they are not enslaved, and Houses have to show them that it's worth staying. This is an archaic system of taxation that is very much geared towards the old tiered, 99% Duer-exclusive Tandhus Isles, where non-Duer tended to be the masters of the Duer and their households and were thus exempt from taxes. A new system is probably going to be developed in the future to garner revenue from the vast and currently tax-free immigrant population of non-Duer and Hariiji Duer.