The Campaign Builder's Guild

Hi.
  I really enjoy spending time at the CBG, and I was really disheartened to read the following:

QuoteIshmayl
I wonder if any of these folks who just show up out of the blue 3 or 4 times a year to post only about their setting have ever thought that if they would get involved on the site more with other settings, they might get better responses?

might[/u] suffer. I do agree with the above comment, but I think we should probably figure out a way to get this community to grow.  It clearly says in the little blurb on the main page that: "At the Campaign Builders' Guild, we will help you achieve a mastery of this art, either through reviewing your campaign setting, critiquing your adventure, or simply basking in the wonder of your campaign world. Go to the forums and ask for help for that new kingdom you're building, and ask for advice on the new magic system you're creating."
  Awesome. I love it. This should be in big block letters at the top of the page.
 The next sentence:
"And while you're here, please ponder others' works of art. Write your own reviews on someone else's setting....."
  Exactly.
 I'm not sure what I am trying to say here. Maybe open up a dialogue about how to turn this unfortunate inevitability into an opportunity to expand the community here at the CBG.

 Take it as you will.

[ooc] There really is no sarcasm or malice in any of the above statements.I like this place, and the many creative minds that inhabit it, and only wish to see it reach its full potential-newby as I may be.
[/ooc]

edit: Title was a little weird.

Here is a somewhat related discussion on this that we had a bit ago: http://www.thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?67102

My idea on resurrecting the site magazine as a publicity tool did not get too far although I did produce a mockup.

Polycarp!'s topic of the fortnight was a good idea for involving the people who are currently here, though.

This has been a conversation that has been going on in various forms since the inception of the Guild. In my experience, the more energy focused on the narrative of how to get reviews and share information, the less actual reviews and sharing of information are going on.

There are five informal rules to getting reviews at the Guild.
1. Invest time and build relationships with site members, either by frequenting the chat, PMing, or posting in their setting.
2. Have a fresh and original idea.
3. Present it in digestible portions.
4. Don't flood the board with a thousand pages of your magnum opus (at least, not at once).
5. Be patient.

Thanks for the information guys. I get the idea that their is some frustration in the direction the site should be headed. But I also get the impression that this is indeed a site for a very small group of people who have known each other for a while and wish to keep it that way.
  Rocking the boat is not my specialty- it is what it is.

Quote from: SarisaBut I also get the impression that this is indeed a site for a very small group of people who have known each other for a while and wish to keep it that way.

I don't think this is the case. Some of us have been around for a long time, sure. But some which are relatively new members just feel like they've been around for a long time--because they've become an active part of the community.

Occasionally, someone posts something and I'll think they're a new member. Then I'll see they actually joined two years ago, but I forgot them--because they posted three times (all on their own setting), and then disappeared for a long time.

It's not that we don't want the site to grow. Very few of the members from the first six months are still regular posters, while some more recent members are very active. It's that we want those that join to join the community, not just post a little on their own setting but otherwise avoid contributing.

I think Ishy was (in combination) expressing wry frustration with this trend since it benefits neither them nor the site, and also trying to provide the not-so-subtle hint you have to give to get.

Quote from: PhoenixI think Ishy was (in combination) expressing wry frustration with this trend since it benefits neither them nor the site, and also trying to provide the not-so-subtle hint you have to give to get.

^that

I keep getting told by a few people on this site that I speak with and trust very much that I should just be that moderator.  Meaning, don't get involved in all the activities going on, assign other people here to get contests and events going, and try to keep my opinion neutral.  However, I don't find that very easy.  I enjoy being an active member, and thus, I get frustrated by the same things that the most dedicated members here get frustrated by.

As any site grows, it attracts its fair share of members who have only their own interests at heart, and I fully understand that.  I don't crack down (anymore) on people coming here and spamming their sites while not contributing to this site, but that doesn't mean I like it anymore than I used to.  So when I see the same few people come here who have never, in the history of the site, contributed to anyones' projects other than their own, but continuously beg the people here to come join their site, help with their projects, etcetera, it rubs me a bit the wrong way.  Especially when my friends here, generous as they are, even still offer to help those casual members, and get crude and rude responses for their efforts, with their help never reciprocated.  Yeah, there's some weird syntax in there, hopefully you can figure it out.

Anyway, that's it.  I'll try to leave these kinds of comments to people here who aren't me. :)

I don't think a moderator should need to distance himself from the community he's moderating. It is obvious that Ishy has not abused his authority (favoritism, unfair bannings or contests, etc.), so I don't understand that sentiment at all.

I think it's ideal that we encourage regular community members to also contribute, and we've had a few community-run contests, discussion threads, activities, and whatnot. That's great. But asking Ishy to pay for the site, keep it running, set up activities and contests, and still keep the whole community at arm's length is unreasonable. It's asking someone to bankroll a party he's not invited to.

Sometimes there's a sort of clique-like feeling on the site that's negative in many ways: it's intimidating to new members, and it makes some older members pop in their dentures to say "back in MY day, we posted uphill in the snow both ways!" We bonded because there were only about twenty of us (at most), and we spent a lot of time joking around and posting goofy junk.

I don't like that this makes some new members feel like they have a hard time fitting into our community, and I don't like that this makes some old members pine nostalgically for "better" times, but it's not anyone's deliberate machination.

It all comes down to feedback. (I guess you must have been wondering where I was going with this, maybe.) Feedback makes people feel appreciated, feel welcomed. No feedback, and you might as well be posting into a black hole, or just typing up documents and saving them on your own hard drive, for no one's eyes but your own. There are all sorts of things that make this community cohere (when it does), but feedback is the coin of the realm. It's important to Ishy that this community thrives, so of course it's in his interests (and if I want to get prescriptive, in his "job description") to promote feedback.

I mean, sure, he could have been maybe a little more tactful in this one particular case, but I don't think it was any kind of huge faux pas.

The best way to get feedback and comments on your own work is to make sure that you're doing goddamn outstanding work. But since that's not always easy to do (at least not without feedback, anyway), a little quid pro quo never hurt anybody.

I mostly agree with LC.

It's unfair to expect a mod on any site to be impartial--you expect them to be fair in member squabbles, but not impartial to the site in general. And if you could, that emotional distance would inevitably dwindle actual interest, and then why are you even putting the effort in.

QuoteThe best way to get feedback and comments on your own work is to make sure that you're doing goddamn outstanding work. But since that's not always easy to do (at least not without feedback, anyway), a little quid pro quo never hurt anybody.

:D But professor Brent, if I had a masterpiece, I wouldn't need feedback, I'd be asking for $.

I don't differ on your claim that quid pro quo helps, but rather on the idea that there's any reason to post here without it.

The feeling that I sometimes typed stuff and might as well not have uploaded from my hard drive was one reason I went on the Consulting Project craze. It's still going, though I think I lot of people are in more difficult schedules this time of year. I later found out more people read my work than I knew, but I assume we've all had those moments, when we wonder why we bother.

And almost all of us have been guilty of not posting so much in other threads as we perhaps should.

And now I'm rambling. All right, time to immolate.

Quote from: La little quid pro quo never hurt anybody.

Probably the the best snippet of text in this tread.

Now, when I first started here, I really craved feedback. And, wondering how to get feedback I looked around a bit and this is what I found.

Most people on the CBG do *not* read every post in every thread (I am one of the few exceptions that seem to). People are busy so they won't always check out your new thread, unless you do something. Posting in someone elses thread is a good way to snag their attention. It is how I first got feedback wich led to me getting to know people. If you want to play ball, someone has to make the first pitch. And doing it yourself is a lot more reliable than waiting for someone else to do it.

That being said, giving people the benefit of the doubt and and checking out there first setting post can give them a great welcoming feeling, and encourages them to join in the community. However when people have been arounf for a while (6months-1year), have a lot of posts but *refuse* to post in other peoples threads or ignore them all the while demanding feedback, it can be annoying.

To paraphrase someone (possibly Vreeg? no too sure): This is a community, and just like out-side the interweb you have to give and take. You can't expect people to give you endless amounts of feedback with nothing in return.

A key player at least for me is how connected someone is to the community. TheCBG does a top notch job of taking a new world builder and turning them into a skilled craftsman of the trade in question. Connection to it in my experience only builds quality in work and so I am biased towards people who devote time to the community.

If a new member posts a setting I will check it out out of courtesy but I often don't respond unless something catches my eye in some way and probably won't read updates on it more than occasionally (admittedly a fault of mine... but time is precious for a college student ;P). However a member who has built up a connection to the CBG will by default draw attention from me. Heck I don't even like poetry and I read ElDo's poetry regularly because...

1) He's an oldschool member with plenty more devotion to the community than the loads of random guys we get who post maybe once ever.

2) I have seen over time his skill, both as its been cultivated by the community and the natural talent he's already possessed. The time he gives to the community has given me ample chance to examine that.

And our resident dorito is only one example. We have many members who have created things that I wouldn't normally look at twice that I go back to read over and over because I am invested in the community... and they have proven that they want to be part of that community. Lately school and work have destroyed my schedule so I can't post nearly as much as I would like to. Thus I haven't reviewed much... however I do read alot and if you ever catch me on IRC and ask me about your thread chances are strong I'll have something to say about it (that I just didn't have time to say in the thread).

Quid Pro Quo is all well and dandy for TCG/CCG forums, where the whole process can be taken care of in a relatively short amount of time, but the CBG is quite different. We're talking about setting that have pages and pages of very intricate and inter-related concepts.

Can you truly understand the Hurgorabaxling race if you haven't read about the Saturn-Jupiter War of 2568 or the destruction of the Yetari Federation's research facility on Jokulon VII or the heroic struggle of the first Hurgorabaxling Major League Baseball player - Bergwigg Mnaxzerta-Polotzaxx?

[blockquote=Lluminous Postaholic]To paraphrase someone (possibly Vreeg? no too sure): This is a community, and just like out-side the interweb you have to give and take. You can't expect people to give you endless amounts of feedback with nothing in return. [/blockquote]
I was probably more caustic.
In fact, thinking back to a few other times I posted on this, I know I was.

Sarisa, nothing feels better here than when people are commenting on your stuff.  And nothing feels worse then when you present something and no one finds it comment-worthy.  And from a purely mathematical standpoint, if people are to respond to a thread...it only stands to basic logic that everyone does their part and treats this like a shared project.

If I were in Turtle-mon's shoes, I'd be scratching my head at folks who show up a few times a year, post on their own stuff, and then do nothing else.  In that they have not yet learned some of the basic childhood lessons.  Hell, the Bealtes said it as well as anyone, "The love you take is equal to the love you make".

I know where Ishy is coming from.  Any I will be up front and say out of all the places I post, this is home base.  Partially becasue of the closeness and tight bond a lot of us have made while watching a few hundred names come and go.  That being said, I think we go over thr top in welcoming new ideas and new members, though I think most of thoase that pass through are the ones who don;t want to put in the time and effort, they just want everyone else to do the work.

I mean, I look at Pinnacle, and you had a great response and out pouring of warm welcome.

so "unfortunate inevitability"?  No, more of "Honestly naming something for what it is".  That being said, I think we are all glad you are here, and glad you are taking the time to post this.  If no one asks, no one answers.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfQuid Pro Quo is all well and dandy for [other] forums .. but the CBG is quite different.

I agree with this more or less, but not quite for the same reason that I edited out. A matter of fact is, the size of any one given setting has little (if any) impact on the size of any other given setting.

If Joe Schmoe decides he likes this little site enough to sign up, then great. if he then proceeds to post his own setting, even better.

However, if his 'setting' consists of a theme, five short paragraphs, and "what should I do about elves?", and someone like Vreeg posts their thoughts on the setting, then Quid Pro Quo starts to get a little... uneven.

Now, we're fortunate enough to be a friendly, understanding community. Those of us who create Celtrecias are aware of the sheer vastness of such settings; Vreeg-- who's been my sole example thus far-- has even said repeatedly that he's broken down Celtrecia as much as possible for this very reason. Also-- and I can speak authoritatively at least for myself, but I suspect this is the same for the other "old timers"-- they can remember back to when their setting (regardless of it's current size) was just "a theme, five short paragraphs, and 'what should I do about elves?'".

That last bit is what brings this whole issue to the forefront for me. <wall-of-text-reminiscence> I remember years ago, when both Xiluh and the Guild were still very fresh, and both were just on the WotC Homebrew board. I was checking the board quite frequently to see if I had any new comments on Xiluh (usually I didn't), and I noticed this one thread never seemed to leave even the top half of the first page. Curious what could make it so popular, I decided to check it out. The material in the first post was interesting to say the least, and I found myself in awe at the insights this guy had on the first page of this thread. The problem, however, was that this thread was about 20 pages long. At the time, it took me all of that weekend to read the entire thread before I posted in it; I wanted to make sure I read every detail, and took in as much conworlding wisdom as I could. I also wanted to make sure I didn't waste this guy's time by asking something that had already been asked by half a dozen other members. While it was ultimately worth the effort, it was a daunting task to absorb as much as I could of those 20 pages. I don't think it would have been entirely fair if I was expected to do so in return for a response to what Xiluh was at the time.</reminiscence>


Just in case anyone was wondering, by the way, the setting was LC's Jade Stage.

rrreply rampage

Quote from: LlumProbably the the best snippet of text in this tread.

Quid Pro Quo is all well and dandy for TCG/CCG forums, where the whole process can be taken care of in a relatively short amount of time, but the CBG is quite different. We're talking about setting that have pages and pages of very intricate and inter-related concepts.

Can you truly understand the Hurgorabaxling race if you haven't read about the Saturn-Jupiter War of 2568 or the destruction of the Yetari Federation's research facility on Jokulon VII or the heroic struggle of the first Hurgorabaxling Major League Baseball player - Bergwigg Mnaxzerta-Polotzaxx?[/quote]yesterday[/i] and I'm hoping somebody will look it up and run with it also), but people do it because it works.

To be fair, I also have a tendency to latch on to people's work and follow it pretty faithfully, so my increasingly uncomfortable metaphor becomes more like a slow, smouldering affair than a one-night stand. Some projects I review once, some projects I follow faithfully and post about often (Shadowfell/Memory Fading, some of S_A's vintage stuff), some projects I read voraciously but have yet to actually post about (Crystalstar, Clockwork Jungle), some projects I know quite a bit about even though they're secret secrets which haven't even been posted yet (so nyaah).

So what I'm getting at is that it isn't all quid pro quo. That's useful for getting your foot in the door, but that's about all. You find settings you want to follow, and you find people who want to follow yours. But it's hard to do either if you're just posting day-in, day-out on your masterpiece, ignoring everything else on the site, and wondering why you never get any reviews.

Quote from: sdragon1984*snip wall of text about walls of text* ...Just in case anyone was wondering, by the way, the setting was LC's Jade Stage.

D'awww. I've still got the same problem, you know. I've had long conversations with multiple folks around here about how to break up huge settings like mine, or present them more invitingly, to get people to read them. It's a tough problem! (I think the wiki is a very good tool for addressing it, incidentally.)

But I think you're interpreting QPQ a little more strictly than I would. I know it's goddamn intimidating to try to read someone's work when it's a brazillion pages long, but reciprocal backscratching is less about proportional response than it is about reaching out and making an effort.

So, everybody, let's reach out, make efforts, put a li'l love in your heart, R-E-S-P-E-C-T (find out what it means to me), work eight days a week, if you like it go ahead and put a ring on it,

oh god I think I have problems

:offtopic:

I'm re-reading the rest of that post so that I can respond with something a bit more substantial, but in the meantime

Quote from: Luminous CrayonI still don't know how some people got the incorrect impression that I'm a professor, though-- particularly not a professor of English...

You say that, and yet, in the very same post, you come out with

QuoteYou gotta work it, honey. Unnh. Thass what I'm talkin' 'bout.

Do you really wonder where we get that impression? :p