The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.

But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.

But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.

Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.

But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.

Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.

That very much relies on having a good DM but then again, what doesn't?

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Nomadic

Quote from: Elemental_Elf

Quote from: NomadicTrue but it will still be lighter than if it didn't have a breather at all.

But with out breathers the conflict to becomes boring, thus loosing the sense of darkness.

Our celtricia group is right now going through a crazy conflict after conflict situation and it certainly is not boring. The tone is becoming almost fearful and crazy since we just know that there is something else around the next corner. I would not call it boring in the least.

That very much relies on having a good DM but then again, what doesn't?

Very true, and vreeg is one of the best.

I think "breathers" are a question of pacing. Pacing affects tone, certainly, but is a separate issue. Pacing is naturally crucial in a story, but a little less so in gaming. That is because, in gaming, most of us play once a week, and thus insert our own release of tension simply by separation. In a story, if you don't have so moments of reduced tension (you never want it go away entirely), the moments of high tension start to lose their impact (i.e. the whole story cannot be a climax).

Quote from: Ghostman

Quote from: LordVreegPlayers and readers tend to notice the absence of light more in tonality than the presence of darkness.  Evilness and bad fortune is concrete in play, but if there is no place of true safety or succor, than the players have a very strong visceral response to this, I find.  No save haven is a fearful concept.

This is a very interesting (and I bet, important) observation. Would this be the setting structure equivalent for "breathers" between more climactic scenes in a narrative? What kinds of things can be used in the role of safe havens - places, characters, events? Is there a need to inject a truly positive tone into these elements, or would it suffice to simply downplay the general grittiness of the setting? Should safe havens be treated as reasonably static features (according to the story/campaign's needs) or can they be fragile, temporal shelters that offer little more than temporary ease?

This, I think, is related to these breathers, but not the same. You can have a breather simply by the PCs having a chance to rest in a shack.

Compare this to say LotR with Rivendale and Lothlorien, which represented legitimate locations of light, places of real safety. The Fellowship could not remain there forever, but they could see something beautiful in the world they were trying to save, and find peace for a time.

Yes.

I mentioned in my last post the difference between the game and the setting, and that the game affects the setting, but is not the setting.

Breathers and game pace are not what I was talking about.  Phoenix has me right when he notes:
[blockquote=Phoenix]"Compare this to say LotR with Rivendale and Lothlorien, which represented legitimate locations of light, places of real safety. The Fellowship could not remain there forever, but they could see something beautiful in the world they were trying to save, and find peace for a time"[/blockquote]

To carry this further, one of the primary underlying themes of many fantasies is 'Coming Home'.  Though Rivendell and Lothlorien are important features, the Shire, it's protection, it's very existence is a Talisman for those who left it behind.
And carefully constructed and understood from the beginning is the importance of the hobbits coming back to the Shire Violated.  There is nothing stronger or more wrenching to them, after all they had been through.  

Are these places available?  In Celtricia, it is one of the prime functions of the Guild or School a player belongs to, and in a few different storylines, it has been catastrophically affecting when a PC finds out that their Guild is not what they think it is.

"There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest?"    --Frodo

On light vs. darkness... I'm shooting for something between Miyazaki's stuff (on the lighter side) and Fullmetal Alchemist (on the darker side).

As I see it, there isn't a whole lot of traditional "evil" in my setting. There are things and people whose power and/or purpose is destructive, but that doesn't always make them evil. The sentinels near the bottom of the local dungeon exist for the sole purpose of devouring those that go there, but they prevent the huge cataclysm that could occur if someone woke up the warped godling at the bottom. Even the godling doesn't have malice per se. There are people who are selfish and amoral, but again they're still people, may still feel love for a select few, and if nothing else can be bought off with minimum bloodshed. There are people who are heroes in their own minds championing utterly wrongheaded ideals, again still people, and because they value "being right" if you change their minds they may be valuable allies. True there are those with vendettas and legit hate, and there are a few of those elder cosmic evils lying around, because what is fantasy or sword and sorcery without one or two unambiguous villains? But still for the most part people are people.

As for breathers and breathing room, players will find the good in the setting and will hopefully work to protect it so they can enjoy it some more. When it comes to that kind of player interest in the setting, for me it almost always comes in the form of relationships with NPCs more than places. I'm not entirely sure why that is; it's just something I've noticed.

Vreeg - while the points of light you were discussing might be settings rather than aspects of a game/story it seems to me that they often still function in a narrative as breathers/pacing mechanisms once translated into a living game; to return to the LOTR example there's a breath between Weathertop/the Flight to the Ford and the Mines of Moria (Rivendell) and, in turn, a breath between the Mines of Moria and Amon Hen (Lorien).

[blockquote=Beej]True there are those with vendettas and legit hate, and there are a few of those elder cosmic evils lying around, because what is fantasy or sword and sorcery without one or two unambiguous villains? But still for the most part people are people.[/blockquote]
Yes, sometimes this 'Light vs Dark' continuum is all shades of grey, more motivation than monolithic.  If People being people is the primary sources of conflict, then it is merely scale with more gradiation, and thus harder to discern for the players.  Not bad or good, just a different tone used to create a specific feel.

Meh, personally I like unambiguous evil.  Both in terms of battling and in terms of, you know, liking as a person.  Seriously: I find it easier to like people if they unambiguously enjoy what they do, good or bad/evil.

 :axe:

Quote from: SteerpikeVreeg - while the points of light you were discussing might be settings rather than aspects of a game/story it seems to me that they often still function in a narrative as breathers/pacing mechanisms once translated into a living game; to return to the LOTR example there's a breath between Weathertop/the Flight to the Ford and the Mines of Moria (Rivendell) and, in turn, a breath between the Mines of Moria and Amon Hen (Lorien).

Pacing is a game fucntion, placement is a setting function.  Rivendell is a Place in a setting design that serves many functions, but as a breateher/rest, it serves a game function.  The two are not mutually exclusive at all, rather, they need to exist as both.  As Tolkien created Middle Earth as the backdrop for his stories(plural.  Very important.  Plural), and Rivendell is used in the Hobbit, in LotR as a historical place, as well as being used in the narrative of LotR.

You are totally correct in it serving that purpose in the 'narrative', whcih is analogous to the 'game'.   Rivendell is also, in terms of setting design, a bastion of safety, one of few in the Wilds of Middle earth.

And did I use the term 'Points of Light'?  I won't even look right now, but if I did, friggin' shoot me.

In Kaidan, dark is definitely the primary flavor. Especially in the current "Gaijin" or outsiders mini-campaign arc, it is the constant unexpected since this is a land alien to the PC party's world. Pace does control the level of action and gives an illusion of peace as the adventure moves along.

In the first adventure - The Gift: Part 1, the PCs arrive in a new world, at the port of Gaijinoshima, although they are free to explore the port town, awaiting for travel papers for a designated three day minimum period puts the party in a wait and see mode. However, encounters with the Yakuza in town creates a dynamic that the party must negotiate. Once the party leaves the port town, a kind of movement forward actually gives some relieve in the tensions found at Gaijinoshima. Being "on the road again" gives some sense of peace and moving forward. Even the arrival to a country inn furthers this sense of safety. Of course, after a single night's stay at the country inn, it is revealed the party is caught within an extra-dimensional place cursed with a haunting they must solve - which throws them back into the "frying pan" of uncertainly once again. Beyond this the continuing trip to Tsue-jo castle becomes a series of wilderness encounters though the pace remains steady. Except for the unexpected wait and see aspect to the end of the adventure, the pace is only slightly lessened - awaiting the start of the next adventure.

While more emphasized in the initial campaign arc, having to deal with the unknown is a constant struggle for adventurers in Kaidan.

The tone is definitely dark, but like gothic horror, there are moments of beauty and peace interjected between running to and from the unknown and encounters with abject terror. Its fun and scary, but definitely paced, though movement is always in progress, as the pace is steady throughout.

GP

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawMeh, personally I like unambiguous evil.  Both in terms of battling and in terms of, you know, liking as a person.  Seriously: I find it easier to like people if they unambiguously enjoy what they do, good or bad/evil.

 :axe:

Unambiguous evil, or something that looks close enough, can be fun. Again, ambiguous evil doesn't mean "evil, but not enjoying it." I'm sure the bandit king of the black forest loves his job, and needs no more motivation than loving wine, wealth, women, and song. But his motive means the difference between letting you run home naked after he mugs you and stalking you for months before blackmailing you into doing his dirty work like another villain would. I'm not saying every villain should be sympathetic or that the heroes should be as bad as those they fight... just that variety is the spice of life.

Quote from: beejazzI'm sure the bandit king of the black forest loves his job, and needs no more motivation than loving wine, wealth, women, and song. But his motive means the difference between letting you run home naked after he mugs you and stalking you for months before blackmailing you into doing his dirty work like another villain would.

I think the problem is that since I don't really hold with the idea of moral systems -- "good" and "evil" -- but instead only with the idea of acceptable/not acceptable actions within a code of behavior I tend to see "unambiguously evil" in the same way you might see "unrepentingly naughty".

So I'm agreeing with you.

[blockquote=Lord Vreeg]And did I use the term 'Points of Light'? I won't even look right now, but if I did, friggin' shoot me. [/blockquote]You did not - I used it.  I didn't know you disliked the term.  Why so vehement a reaction, if you don't mind my asking?  Not that I'm particularly attached to it as a term or anything.