The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI am rather weary of so many games and settings that choose to focus on the 3 big good guy races - Humans, Elves and Dwarves. Humans are always the empire building tyrants, Dwarves are always the drunk warriors and Elves are always the aloof ranged combatants.

It's just so boring to see these three races constantly united together against a common, oft overwhelming, enemy (i.e. Mordor, the Blight, the Horde, etc.).

Now you know how I feel when people keep making humans the most versatile/adaptable/plucky/common/etc. race.

The most versatile/adaptable part annoys me too. Of course that mentality springs from the same PC mentality that denies Humans a creator god and sub-races (in traditional fantasy).

The problem with our likes and dislikes of particular races probably stems from their portrayal as single cultures rather than diverse populations (certainly a human from a northern country, even if he's a computer nerd, is going to be different from a computer nerd from a warmer one). The like and dislike of dwarves can also have something to do with their peculiar appearance - no matter what excuses people make, they'd find it more appealing to be attractive (in real life or in-game) than not, and well, dwarves are a bit weird looking.

That being said, I don't like dwarves as much as I used to. It may or may not be related, but as I started spending more time on the science side of things I got tired with the shorter, bulkier race of people and started to favor those that are roughly the same height as humans. I actually like elves more than dwarves, although they're almost never on my list of races to include in a setting (in fact I tend not to use anybody as playables except humans).

Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME HORSEThe problem with our likes and dislikes of particular races probably stems from their portrayal as single cultures rather than diverse populations (certainly a human from a northern country, even if he's a computer nerd, is going to be different from a computer nerd from a warmer one).

Wait, are you saying that we all at the same time hate monocultures?

I actually find I don't hate dwarves as a monoculture, while in a vast majority of other races it just hasn't worked.  I think maybe the "beer-drinkin', hard-fighten'" image is, to me, is a primal version of what all other cultures are if you strip away their façades, such that monoculture dwarves are okay because they are really being all cultures at the same time.  Dwarves as a monoculture only rankles when it's used to show the "specialness" of humans as varied.

Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME HORSEThe like and dislike of dwarves can also have something to do with their peculiar appearance - no matter what excuses people make, they'd find it more appealing to be attractive (in real life or in-game) than not, and well, dwarves are a bit weird looking.

I agree, but dwarves don't fall into an unattractive category for me.  I think there's also a bit of an uncanny valley effect: I like races that are very close to human (more or less, I don't necessarily like humans all that much), and then I like stuff that doesn't look human ranging from furries all the way out to the things Steerpike creates.  But then there's that range that's "ugly humans": goblins, trolls, hags, sometimes orcs, demons, etc.  At that's when I go "ugh".  They're so close to human I need them to be attractive, whereas if they weren't human they could be freaky and I might still like them.

I like dwarfs too. And I'm sure you know my setting's take on them. I love when they're the master craftsmen, though, as I think it tends to be more trendy for elves to be the masters at everything. I've especially grown fond of the WoW dwarfs, with their whole archeology in search of their origins.

As seen with my setting, I do prefer if dwarfs are less of a human stereotype and more their own. Often they are portrayed as "short surly drunk tough human", and that's just as uncool as "pretty human who's good at everything" elves.

There was a brief period of time where I considered having a different race other than dwarfs, for the shear purpose of being different. I was talked out of it by a friend who said "you can't have fantasy without dwarfs". Now, I don't think he's 100% right, but there is something very archetypal about them, and something would be missing without a race that encompasses the dwarfs roles.

Quote from: XeviatThere was a brief period of time where I considered having a different race other than dwarfs, for the shear purpose of being different. I was talked out of it by a friend who said "you can't have fantasy without dwarfs". Now, I don't think he's 100% right, but there is something very archetypal about them, and something would be missing without a race that encompasses the dwarfs roles.

I totally agree. Most settings will wind up having Jock Vikings who like to drink themselves silly, mostly because it's something players of all role playing skill levels can emulate with ease. To take this even further, most fantasy settings tend to possess large subterranean caverns and those need to be filled with at least one 'good guy' race or lest adventures in the deep become too perilous. Also, the good guys need (in traditional fantasy mind you) a race that possesses a more militant society, so as to allow players the ability to choose such a race with out treading into the more monstrous/belligerent races (or a half-breed version).

Thinking about it, (traditional) Elves can easily fill out a similar set of criteria - forest-oriented, twilight-esque, aloof Ranger-Druids...

Quote from: FREAKIN' AWESOME HORSEThe like and dislike of dwarves can also have something to do with their peculiar appearance - no matter what excuses people make, they'd find it more appealing to be attractive (in real life or in-game) than not, and well, dwarves are a bit weird looking.

I think dwarves look pretty badass. Their women, sure, maybe I wouldn't go for unless (as in some settings) their height-width ratio was completely different from that of their menfolk... and they were beardless, haha... But as far as wanting to be, or at least pretend to be, someone based on their looks, I'd love to look like a dwarf! I've always wished I could grow a big beard, and the idea of plaiting it into all kinds of crazy designs just reeks of awesome. I wouldn't mind being a little shorter than average, I don't think, and the burliness could be kinda cool, if for no other reason than for the physical strength that would accompany it... after all I've always imagined most of a dwarf's bulk to be muscle rather than fat.

Just my two low-denomination monetary units.

I'm actually a little surprised by the response to this thread. I am also very pleased with it. Maybe there will be enough interest to expand this out further in time. What I mean by that is that I would like to have several joined threads, each discussing a different thing. I'm getting ahead of myself, though. I'll just take it one step at a time so that I'll be able to stop when people lose interest.

Quote from: KindlingIf the balance of mining, fighting, drinking, and beard-wearing isn't to my liking, I can be very unhappy with a certain author or setting's dwarves.

(in the sense that you might say a kind of food is strong)[/quote]Dwarves seemed to be left rather vague and ill-defined in the Lord of the Rings. I haven't read The Hobbit or the Silmarillion though, so perhaps my vision of Tolkien's dwarves is limited.[/quote]My most recent brush with dwarfdom was pretty well done. Dwarves in Thedas (the world of Dragon Age) live in a cast-based society, worship their ancestors, a lot have beards (especially the noble cast), live underground, literally cannot use magic, etc.[/quote]And a dwarf without mining is like vreeg without wine drinking[/quote]I love when they're the master craftsmen, though, as I think it tends to be more trendy for elves to be the masters at everything.[/quote]I think they both have their areas where they excel, usually. Craftsmen how, exactly? Do you mean all around, or just when it come to stones, metals, and that sort of thing?

Wow, this got pretty long. Sorry about that...I've missed you guys.  :ninja:

Just gonna leave this here, you know, just no particular reason....

Quote from: Luminous CrayonJust gonna leave this here, you know, just no particular reason....

I have managed to avoid that game so far...

Quote from: Ninja D!

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw(in the sense that you might say a kind of food is strong)

If used in the context of food what does the word "strong" mean to you?  To me it means a kind of intensity, not a harsh kind of intensity like chili peppers, not a sharp kind of intensity like lemons, but a weighty kind of intensity like you get with certain cheeses.  I'm trying to metaphore a concept which I don't know the words to.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Ninja D!

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw(in the sense that you might say a kind of food is strong)

If used in the context of food what does the word "strong" mean to you?  To me it means a kind of intensity, not a harsh kind of intensity like chili peppers, not a sharp kind of intensity like lemons, but a weighty kind of intensity like you get with certain cheeses.  I'm trying to metaphore a concept which I don't know the words to.

So dwarves like black licorice, ginger, and pumpernickel?

I too am a lover of dwarves. I always saw dwarves as old (maybe even dead) and masculine (hunchbacked, bearded, and entombed), while elves are young and androgynous. Both of which are pretty archetypical whatever other trappings follow. In fact, many fantasy creatures were exaggerations of types of people, be they the morally uninformed goblins and fairies (who are like children with an occasionally sinister innocence and disregard for rules learned later) or the ancient and wise but also senile hags (obvious old women). I think that might explain some of the enduring appeal for elves and dwarves in particular. I think halflings cater to our more kindly views towards children and such, gnomes appeal to the physically inept geek archetype, and orcs appeal to the need for a vilified foe (and one especially attractive to us as geeks... a mentally handicapped bully).

As for the "typical" races... my twist was to cast aside newer stuff and bring back some of the old. So my setting has no orcs or halflings, but it does have goblins and trolls. And all my races (besides humans and robots) have unique innate magical potential. I still can't figure out what spell like abilities to give a dwarf, though.

I think I may have a better grasp of what you're saying now, SM.

Quote from: beejazzI always saw dwarves as old (maybe even dead) and masculine (hunchbacked, bearded, and entombed), while elves are young and androgynous.

I could understand a feeling of "old" being associated with the dwarves because of their connection to the earth. Do you prefer them as one of the old / original races that have become a bit isolationist, a race dying out / past their prime, or a dead race? Or maybe an old race that is still vital and involved with the rest of the world, despite being old?

Quote from: Ninja D!I think I may have a better grasp of what you're saying now, SM.

Quote from: beejazzI always saw dwarves as old (maybe even dead) and masculine (hunchbacked, bearded, and entombed), while elves are young and androgynous.

I mostly meant old as individuals. Like I said, bearded hoary elders all shut up in their tombs.

I haven't thought a great deal about dwarves in my current setting, beyond knowing that they (like most non-human humanoids) are innately magical and will take a pretty old school traditional approach (keeping what makes them what they are). They certainly aren't isolationist in a traditional sense, as they've been engaging in a near perpetual war with the goblin kingdom, but they don't have imperial aspirations as do the current goblin kingdom and a few human nations, and they aren't the sneaky spying bastards elves can be.

I suppose, as age of the race goes, they have a longer continuity of unification than most races. They haven't the long history of bickering amongst themselves and excluding each other that I see elves having, aren't as young a bunch as humans are, and aren't facing the problems trolls are facing. Goblins are also more unified than is normal for most races, but it's a more recent phenomenon. They've got some of the oldest and most complete historical archives of any bunch, and in my world that might be worth a great deal to the heroes.

What about room for dwarves to not monoculture race? Has anyone seen that done? How'd it work out?

Quote from: Ninja D!What about room for dwarves to not monoculture race? Has anyone seen that done? How'd it work out?

Quote from: DM who tried thatMy goodness I've... I've never seen so much bl...blood. And the children, why did they have to suffer too?