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"high" fantasy

Started by Kindling, November 27, 2009, 05:01:34 PM

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Nomadic

Heh the thread name made me think of hobbits smoking pipeweed... except it isn't pipeweed... and it gives them the munchies. On a more serious note this is my thoughts on what drives something into high fantasy territory.

- Again the actions of the characters can dramatically alter the world they live in
- Morality tends heavily towards black and white
- Good vs Evil is the central theme
- Magic is powerful (it can be either rare or common)
- Conflict is on an epic scale
- Often destiny driven

Of course people's concepts of high fantasy will differ, those are just the key things that for me make high fantasy "high".

Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Nomadic- Again the actions of the characters can dramatically alter the world they live in
- Morality tends heavily towards black and white
- Good vs Evil is the central theme
- Magic is powerful (it can be either rare or common)
- Conflict is on an epic scale
- Often destiny driven

You hit the nail on the head!  :detect:  :yumm:  :)

Kindling

The concepts of fate and destiny seem obvious additions now that they've been mentioned, but I honestly hadn't thought of them. I think the interpretation of these ideas and how they are made manifest is something I should definitely look into exploring.
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Matt Larkin (author)

The original term "high fantasy" was coined to apply to Tolkien and Lewis, so I think that kind of sets the standard there. "Low fantasy" is intended only as a direct contrast to high fantasy (either because it's set in real world, or because the fantasy elements are reduced, or whatever); but it has no real meaning without the existence of high fantasy as a reference point.

And yeah, Conan is Sword & Sorcery, a separate genre, though it could be considered on the low end of the spectrum if we assume the high/low discussion means a spectrum of how prevalent the fantastic elements are in the setting.

We have, in the past, contrasted the level in fantasy in a setting from the level of magic, too. A setting can be high fantasy, even if magic is rare.
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Kindling

At the risk of letting the thread slip off-topic, I think the what Steerpike was trying to say about the Hyborian Age and Nehwon, is that they're both considered Sword & Sorcery, and yet Khyron1144 had said that he would view the latter as being a high-fantasy setting, so he was curious as to why.
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Superfluous Crow

Hmm, if all fantasy is a combination of real elements and fantastical elements than I'd say that High Fantasy could be defined as any fantasy where the fantastical elements outweigh the real ones. Not to say that it is unrealistic and every person necessarily has to be a one-dimensional archetype; it just plays by its own set of rules.
As such, I would say an important element of high fantasy is that it makes the impossible possible. This is connected to your idea about epic scale (which is somewhat profound i think :)), where a small bunch of heroes can defeat entire undead armies and survive a dozen mortal wounds while learning to ride dragons and annihilate cities with the power of the mind.
(on second thought, i might have mixed up the concepts of high fantasy and high magic fantasy... Well, I'll leave this in case you can use it.)
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LordVreeg

Quote from: KindlingThe concepts of fate and destiny seem obvious additions now that they've been mentioned, but I honestly hadn't thought of them. I think the interpretation of these ideas and how they are made manifest is something I should definitely look into exploring.

I agree about the importance of this.
At our most subconsiously mystical/metaphysical, destiny is very compelling and quite literally, 'Epic'.  Prophecy is the narrative child of destiny, in terms of setting design.

Tolkien and Lewis, as has been mentioned, are archetypes for 'High Fantasy', and the use of prophecy and destiny are well documented.  
And while I am not a big Eddings fan, it contained one of the more interesting uses of prophecy, with 'competing prophecies' rushing forward for millenia...
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Steerpike

[blockquote=Kindling]I think the what Steerpike was trying to say about the Hyborian Age and Nehwon, is that they're both considered Sword & Sorcery[/blockquote]That's what I was trying to say.

O Senhor Leetz

Good Vs. Evil is a key component in High fantasy, in my opinion.
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Steerpike

I'd agree - the big distinction to me between high and low fantasy would be the level of heroism.  Bas-Lag might have more abudnant fantasy elements than, say, Wheel of Time, but I`d call WoT high fantasy and Bas-Lag... well maybe not low fantasy, but not high fantasy.

Superfluous Crow

Hmm, a somewhat confusing terminology we use in context with speculative fiction... Really, what would Bas-Lag be? (considering it a subgenre of fantasy; not its own "weird" genre).
Maybe a good way to define high fantasy would be to define what it isn't.
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Elemental_Elf

High Fantasy entails many fantastical elements, the world adheres to less realistic rules, typically it focuses on a group pf adventurers who want to 'save the world.'

Low Fantasy has less fantastical elements, the world is more realistic but with a few fantasy changes (i.e. magic), and with this in mind, PC's are never out to save the world (though a Kingdom is reasonable).

Further, according to Wikipedia, High Fantasy settings are (mostly) set on other worlds, separate from our own; where as Low Fantasy is often set in the real world. With this in mind, Lord of the Rings, Narnia and Harry Potter are all classified as High Fantasy even though all three are supposedly grounded in the real world. The reason for this is that Middle Earth is different enough to be a separate world, Narnia itself is completely separate (you don't see the badgers in London) and the Wizarding World of Harry Potter is distinct and segregated away from muggle eyes (thus making a de facto alternate world).


Superfluous Crow

But what about fantasy books which take place in another world, have many fantastical elements, but generally take on a gray-scale morality, employ anti-heroes, and are more "rough" than the classical high fantasy tale?
Currently...
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khyron1144

Quote from: SteerpikeAh - so it's the fact that the setting is technically earth that's the big deal?  Wouldn't that disqualify Middle Earth (also a primordial earth)?  Magic wise there might be a bit less in Conan than in Newhon and Middle  but hardly a vast amount.


At the time, I was actually trying to define one element of high fantasy and not the entire genre:  the fictional world.

I would second and agree with the epic scope of good versus of evil as another element of high fantasy.

Here's an odd question:  are intellignet, not-exactly human but definitely humanoid races worth considering as part of the definition of high fantasy?  I can't think of an example on my internal list of high fantasy that doesn't include them.
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Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowBut what about fantasy books which take place in another world, have many fantastical elements, but generally take on a gray-scale morality, employ anti-heroes, and are more "rough" than the classical high fantasy tale?

If the story was fast paced then that would fall into the 'Sword and Sorcery' genre.

Of course none of these definitions are nearly as definite as they ought to be.

In my opnion we'd be better served by inventing our own categories than using these obtuse definitions.