The Campaign Builder's Guild

www.tvtropes.org

Enjoy, and you're welcome.

But, to get you started:  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyCounterpartCulture , http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StandardFantasySetting , http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LeftJustifiedFantasyMap

Most importantly:  http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TropesAreNotBad and http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/TropesAreNotBad

M.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfVery true, however Dragons do possess the ability to polymorph...

that may or may not be true, but that is a DnD cliche right there ;)

[quote tvtropes.org]
[...]On the whole, tropes are not clichés. The word clichéd means "stereotyped and trite". In other words, dull and uninteresting. [...]
[/quote]
I believe we all agree on this. So, rephrasing my question: which things do you consider boring or overused just the way they are, with no twist?

The flippant answer would be "everything"

Without a twist, or at least a fresh view or style to it, almost anything that has been done before has, well, been done before. I think unless you're creating something entirely new, in order to be interesting, there has to be at least a slight twist or change of flavour or SOMETHING to make your work interesting, in any field.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfLast time I checked, there were an awful lot of Half-Dragons running around, and we all know the sultry bar wench from the dirtfarmton is too busy with her day job to take a long walk through the Shadowwoods, up the Darkcliff Mountains, over the Duskdoom Bridge and into the dragon's lair just for a passionate night of ecstasy...  

You're thinking too complicated here. Obviously them Dragons are just being true to their stereotype and blackmailing all the nearby kingdoms/villages/whatnut to send them sacrificial virgins. Which then cease to be virgins in rather short order, thus explaining all those Half-Dragons.

all considered, I think the overall quality of a setting is more important than it's originality factor. Just because something is new does not mean it is good. more often than not, new things seem to depend on novelty and a cheap "wow" factor than substantial quality. In contrast, a classical good vs. evil fable, while not entirely original, can be incredible if well written and well thought-out.  

Quote from: Leetzall considered, I think the overall quality of a setting is more important than it's originality factor. Just because something is new does not mean it is good. more often than not, new things seem to depend on novelty and a cheap "wow" factor than substantial quality. In contrast, a classical good vs. evil fable, while not entirely original, can be incredible if well written and well thought-out.  

I suppose this is kind of just a different approach to what I was trying to get at. You see, "well-written and well thought-out" really, in my mind, means taking at least a slightly fresh angle, even if it's only a stylistic one, otherwise it would tend to be considered more of a pastiche than a well-written piece in its own right.

Also, I find it interesting, in a community mostly working in the fantasy genre, that you refer to the "wow" factor as being cheap. In my mind, that's what the whole of fantasy is about!

Generally, i feel that standard issue fantasy is overdone as is. Writing fantasy (settings or not) should be an exploration of imagination, originality and creativity, and yet we revert to the defaults of elves, dwarves and dragons. I know, this is what we grew up with, and it has a certain nostalgic charm to it, but I think we can do better (and most of us do).
That being said, my primary dislikes:
- Proven Gods (many of you may have heard me rant along with others on this subject before)
- standard issue races without serious twists
- Dragons (nothing bad about them as such... there are just so damn many everywhere!)
- Unimaginative and universal magic (where magic ceases to be "something" and just becomes a wild card equivalent to anything really)
- Semi-realistic medieval feudal worlds (if anything has been done to death, this is it. At least throw some spice in there somewhere)
- template planes (the Plane of X has never worked, and never will work)

Generally, many roleplayers seem to be suffering to a D&D addiction, where they have difficulty thinking beyond what can be put together with that basic toolset. (this view is mostly based on my experiences with the people I've been playing with over the last few years).
All of this might of course just come down to my short attention span and need for novelty :D

I really need to get Mare Eternus done. If fantasy is dragons and elves and universal magic then it's so anti-fantasy it isn't even funny.

Quote from: Kindling

Quote from: Leetzall considered, I think the overall quality of a setting is more important than it's originality factor. Just because something is new does not mean it is good. more often than not, new things seem to depend on novelty and a cheap "wow" factor than substantial quality. In contrast, a classical good vs. evil fable, while not entirely original, can be incredible if well written and well thought-out.  

I suppose this is kind of just a different approach to what I was trying to get at. You see, "well-written and well thought-out" really, in my mind, means taking at least a slightly fresh angle, even if it's only a stylistic one, otherwise it would tend to be considered more of a pastiche than a well-written piece in its own right.

Also, I find it interesting, in a community mostly working in the fantasy genre, that you refer to the "wow" factor as being cheap. In my mind, that's what the whole of fantasy is about!

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to get at. Lord of the Rings, for example, is not original. it takes a huge number of sources, especially Nordic and Saxon mythology, but they are put together extremely well. There is nothing inherently terrible with a setting of mountainy dwarves, foresty elves, and mean orcs as long as it is well-written (in a literary sense) and thought through.

and by "wow" factor, I mean cheap thrills that may make a reader think "huh, that's kinda neat" but are soon forgotten. elemental races (water elves, fire dwarves) fall under this category. so would things like adding wings to something, making an evil version of a race, modifying alignments, and other things like that. (that being said, if a change along those lines is essential and fits with a settings tone and style, well that's another story)

Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowGenerally, many roleplayers seem to be suffering to a D&D addiction, where they have difficulty thinking beyond what can be put together with that basic toolset. (this view is mostly based on my experiences with the people I've been playing with over the last few years).

YES YES YES. (also, maybe some consulting action? eh eh ;)?)

Quote from: Cataclysmic CrowGenerally, i feel that standard issue fantasy is overdone as is.

That's only because the genre of Fantasy was pirated from the collected works Tolkien with a re-jiggered (though derivative) history and a heavier emphasis on Medieval European culture.

I wonder what could be distilled from a brainstorming of what the essence of fantasy is without reaching the level of alienation? For although some very fantastical work can be created-- the reason that the Tolkienesque milieu is so popular is because the tropes and images of it are familiar and to some extent universal. Things that are too strange- Mieville or Clive Barker's work-- can be ignored out of hand for being too difficult to understand.

General fiction always has it easier than fantasy, because reality exists and the general author can make assumptions in the text. A fantasy author cannot- or if they do, then they are called derivative of tolkein. a true fantasy author needs to invent a lot. Thankfully Tolkein already invented a great deal that permeated world culture. (Even though I and others have some question as to his literary merit- his cultural contributions cannot be denied.)

I am often impressed by some of the fantastical worlds here and I suppose that many may have good advice to impart.

Quote from: Leetzand by "wow" factor, I mean cheap thrills that may make a reader think "huh, that's kinda neat" but are soon forgotten. elemental races (water elves, fire dwarves) fall under this category. so would things like adding wings to something, making an evil version of a race, modifying alignments, and other things like that. (that being said, if a change along those lines is essential and fits with a settings tone and style, well that's another story)

Things that are too strange- Mieville or Clive Barker's work-- can be ignored out of hand for being too difficult to understand.
[/quote]

As a Miéville fan, I find that sentence a little hard to stomach. Don't you think it a little harsh to say something should be ignored out of hand? Especially for the reason you give. Too difficult to understand? I have to ask what it is about his work that you find hard to understand? I don't mean to sound confrontational about this, but I'm just generally quite shocked at that statement. Perhaps I've misinterpreted the context you put that sentence in.

Actually I like Mieville and Barker, but many people avoid them simply because they find it difficult to place their wonderful creations in context.

I was not saying that I did not understand his work or dislike it.

Speaking of weird or strange, you may have noticed that I aspire to be sort of the Lewis Carroll of this place... which is fairly hard to be given the amazing inventiveness of this place-- but I think I've made good progress towards that. (see: Tatterdemalion and Vreeg's chatbox comment "I think Lewis Carroll inhabits you, LD)

My comment, thus, was about walking that fine line and not alienating one's readers, but still creating a believable world. Steerpike made some comments about that in one previous thread as well.

Without context, it's hard to create believable fantasy.
But making things too inventive or strange tends to cause reader resistance.

Quote from: Light DragonWithout context, it's hard to create believable fantasy.
But making things too inventive or strange tends to cause reader resistance.

Yet Sci-Fi is often built upon the odd and weird. I suppose it has more to do with one's expectations. If you see fantasy, you want Swords, Magic and Kings...