The Campaign Builder's Guild

"From one region to the next, beings of the same race may look or act very different.  At their core, however, they are very similar to others of their kind." - Istirith, Human

Dwarves that live in the mountains may be a bit more 'rough around the edges' than dwarves that make their homes in the foot hills.  The same goes for humans that live in the wilds when compared to humans that live in cities.  To me, these differences are minor.  They can be shown by good character development rather than basic statistics at the time of character creation.

What I mean is, I don't like a lot of subraces.  I'm not saying that I would like to do away with all subraces.  Sure, elves that live in the forest are different enough from elves that live underground to have a subrace.  My problem is that subraces have gotten out of control.  I have even seen people create subraces to fit what they want in their settings rather than simply redoing the standard races.  That is not what I want to do.

"Stories have always been told about the other races.  They have been exaggerated for generations.  Since the average human never encounters a dwarf, they'll never know that dwarves aren't all greedy and bloodthirsty." - Sebastion, Dwarf

The races in my world won't be exactly like the standard races.  That doesn't mean that the same stereotypes won't exist, though.  They could still be in my world, which is mostly populated by humans, and possibly even make for some very interesting roleplaying.

"Do not tread lightly on sacred ground." - Aeriel, Elf

How much can I change the core races before it will start to scare away potential players?  I'm not very fond of the way they are now.  It seems to me that some abilities were given to races that make no sense, just to make them balanced.  I don't like that idea.

I am about to post my Race/Culture rules on my campaign setting page; perhaps you'd be interested in reading it. The basic system is that a character has biological traits and environmental traits. Currently, I am only using this to help determine what happens when a Human is raised by a Dwarf, or when an Elf is raised by an Orc, but I will be altering it to include the cultures from each of my races' ethnicities.

So I've come to the same conclusion as you; ethnicities are better than subraces. I have way too many half-bloods and plane touched in my setting to deal with subraces.

I would, indeed, be interested in reading that.  It sounds like something that could help me quite a lot, actually.

Quote from: Black Jack DaveyHow much can I change the core races before it will start to scare away potential players?

It reall depends on the players. Some people hate the races as they are now and would love to see them changed, while others wouldn't touch the race if you changed their favored class.

I think you can get away with minor changes without upsetting most people.

@Xeviat: I would love to see what you do with that. I have always found it strange that a dwarf raised by elves would have the same love for stonecraft as a dwarf raised by dwarves.

Quote from: Poseidon

Quote from: Black Jack DaveyHow much can I change the core races before it will start to scare away potential players?

I do away with favored classes altogether.  I think it narrows things too much.

I was just using it as an example of something that is insignificant and has no real bearing on a race. I personally don't care if someone makes minor changes or completely revamps all the races.

I think it is something that I would probably have to make clear up front so I wouldn't have people joining the game and then getting upset by it.

QuoteThey can be shown by good character development rather than basic statistics at the time of character creation.

Absoflogginlutely.  In Altvogge, the subraces are limited to radical environments (aquatic types, drow/duergar/svirneblin, etc.).  An elf is a bloody elf, whether he was raised in the forest or the greatest city in the world.

QuoteHow much can I change the core races before it will start to scare away potential players?

Simple answer, as much as you want.  To fit the flavor of the world I wanted, I gave humans and extra bonus feat, and eliminated most racial ability score penalties, and shook up a few of their racial features.  For instance, dwarves get a +2 CON, but no stupid CHA penalty, which never made sense.  Why would a dwarf, on average, find members of another race more compelling than their own kind, given the clannish nature they are presented with?  

QuoteI do away with favored classes altogether. I think it narrows things too much.

I did the same thing.  Since I use Resource Points (action/spell/power points all rolled up together), at first level, a players race determines how many racial bonus rp the character gets, depending on class type.  This is a one time thing that will not mean much after a few levels of play.  And it is never a penalty.  For example, an elf going into an arcane class at first level will get 3 bonus resource points, but his elf buddy going into a psionic class will get 0.  A goethlin(goblin) will get 4 bonus rps for being in a psionic class at 1st level, but 0 for going arcane.  Humans always get 2, no matter the class type.