Nationalities

[Jürgen Hubert]

Places of origin matter because they are part of what we are.

Only if you let them be.

If you aren't aware of how your country of origin shapes you, you don't really have much of a choice - it is too ingrained.

How much time have you spent in another country, if I may ask?

[Llum]

Places of origin matter because they are part of what we are.

Only if you let them be.

I hate to say this but it effects you wether you like it or not. Just like your heritage. There are some things you can't escape, even denying it is being effected by it in a way.

Now I'm not saying these are the only two things that define you and that's all. Where you come from and your heritage will have a non-marginal effect on you as a person.

I'm going to agree with everything Jurgen has said above me as well.

[Superfluous Crow]

I think there are some things you have no control of; subconscious pushes to your personality made by your surroundings and the culture that surround you. And then there is the more conscious matter of partaking in a cultural identity. You might have been manipulated on an unnoticeable level to become slightly more american than canadian (or whatever), but you can make this division even more obvious by making choices counter to your own identity but which fit with your national identity (listening to certain types of music, only reading up on your own country's history, only taking part in traditional religions rather than religions you believe in, and only watching sports that are popular in your country or where your own country is participating).

[Biohazard]

[blockquote=JH]Unfortunately, countries believe in you.[/blockquote]

This is grounds for EPIC "in Soviet Russia" jokes... :)

[Nomadic]

Amen. Maybe (ironically) it's just because I live in Canada - a very multicultural place where nationality and ethnicity don't matter as much compared to many parts of the world

I doubt it's that since many places where culture is greatly varied (see: America) tend to have large groups that strongly identify with their ancestral culture. It's probably just your personality.

[Wensleydale]

Like I said, you guys have been limping along and doing a half-arsed job that doesn't really accomplish much other than needless amounts of legal wrangling. Honestly, you guys (Scots and Welsh) are nothing more than puppet regimes, IMO. You have no real independence in domestic affairs for the simple reason that London tells you what you can use the money they give you for and if London doesn't like something your government has done, they can override it. You may as well be in a unitary state at that point.

P.S. In a true federation, you wouldn't be competing under the 'Welsh' flag in any international sporting events (save some EU or Commonwealth ones) any more than there can be an independent Nevadan team, separate from the US's team.

You may have missed the point slightly. Although London could in THEORY overrule anything we do, there's a kind of unspoken rule that they DON'T. I do agree that we have less independence than Scotland (mainly 'cause their government have more powers than ours) but that IS slowly changing. So actually, what would really be the difference about being under a federation? We have our devolved governments and we have our over-seeing government in London which makes all the 'big decisions' (like going to war or passing pan-national laws, just like, I believe, the American... Congress? Possibly?). The only differences would be that we'd have slightly more say in what we spend our money on and legislation within Wales, which is basically what Scotland's got now.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

If you aren't aware of how your country of origin shapes you, you don't really have much of a choice - it is too ingrained.

I hate to say this but it effects you wether you like it or not. Just like your heritage. There are some things you can't escape, even denying it is being effected by it in a way.

Now I'm not saying these are the only two things that define you and that's all. Where you come from and your heritage will have a non-marginal effect on you as a person.

I'm going to agree with everything Jurgen has said above me as well.

The point wasn't that origin doesn't affect you, the point is that you don't have to give a damn if you don't want to.

[Kindling]

I don't see how you can fail to "give a damn"... the whole way you were raised, and the way you developed as a person due to the cultural influences that surrounded you in your formative years, which can vary HEAVILY from one nation to the next, are an integral part of who you are... are you saying you don't give a damn about yourself?

I think I see one aspect of where you may be coming from... which is maybe that you see taking interest in your heritage, or pride in your nation, as something to associate with a sort of obnoxious, just-sub-racist patriotism, which is something I myself have done for a long time...

But I am quite proud of my nationality, in a sort of... I dunno, alternative way... England has a less than wonderful history, but I think despite that we've turned into quite good modern nation, all things considered. There's a lot I would like to change, but I like it here and I'm proud of being English.

However, this form of national pride in me is very different from the kind of right-wing, nationalistic, racist "national pride" associated with people like the BNP... who have actually achieved the demoralising feat of turning the English flag into a symbol of racism.... instead I'm simply... I don't know. Quietly proud, I suppose, while also being realistic about the flaws of my nation.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

... are you saying you don't give a damn about yourself?

I'm saying I don't give a damn about the parts I don't give a damn about.  Genetic and cultural history and nationality are examples.

And just because I have parts I give a damn about I don't need to actually give them names or identify them.

I think I see one aspect of where you may be coming from... which is maybe that you see taking interest in your heritage, or pride in your nation, as something to associate with a sort of obnoxious, just-sub-racist patriotism...

No, I don't see what you guys are doing as anything that bad.  I see it as needless labeling, a grabbing of an icon to stick on yourself because you need to tell someone, even yourself, who you are out-loud.  I just don't see a reason to take identity farther than just being.

Nothing I've read here as struck me as "obnoxious, just-sub-racist patriotism". :cool:

[Kindling]

I wasn't referring to what was posted in this thread, I'm sorry if it came across like I was! Not at all!

And as for your point about "needless" labelling... I think there is a deep-seated human need to label... well, pretty much everything. Everyone puts things into little mental categories (or at least, everyone in my experience) so why not themselves and other people too? Labelling something is just describing it as what it is, it's not telling it what to be... does that make sense? I'm not sure it does... but regardless, I mean it.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

... I think there is a deep-seated human need to label... well, pretty much everything. Everyone puts things into little mental categories (or at least, everyone in my experience) so why not themselves and other people too? Labelling something is just describing it as what it is, it's not telling it what to be... does that make sense? I'm not sure it does... but regardless, I mean it.

Then just put me in the category of "doesn't understand humans".  ;)

[Steerpike]

I guess the way that I was interpreting Silvercat's point was perhaps that even if a place forms a part of you, it's not the same for everybody.  Being American or English or Russian or whatever means something different to different people; it's viewed very differently depending on a lot of other factors than mere place.  So, while place might contribute a set of cultural assumptions, it's always interpreted and filtered.  What it means to be of >insert nation< isn't a singular thing, it's a multiplicity - in fact I'd go so far as to say that each and every individual within a culture or region has a wholly separate and unique version of that culture/region's behaviors, even if some commonalities can be drawn.  Two Americans may radically disagree about what it means to be American, and neither one can claim to be right; in fact, two Americans who largely agree on what it means to be Americans probably disagree in the details or on their interpretation of the definition.  And while some people attempt to allow a set of arbitrary cultural norms to define them wholly (in my mind a foolish goal, since those norms are ultimately illusory and mutable rather than static or concrete), others can realize their own essential role in digesting or interpreting their sense of place or culture, defining themselves against or apart from the commonly conceived set of behaviors of their social context.  I personally prefer to live in a society that encourages this kind of self-individuation rather than asserting "We're X so we do things in X manner."

/end rant.

[Jürgen Hubert]

The point wasn't that origin doesn't affect you, the point is that you don't have to give a damn if you don't want to.

If you are ever going to interact intensively with people from elsewhere, you'd better give a damn. Otherwise the potential for unintentionally giving insult is enormous.

Of course, if you never leave your country of origin, and never have guests from elsewhere in either your private life or during work, then it really doesn't matter. But then you are effectively a captive of your home country...

[Steerpike]

Maybe I'm seeing something that noone else is in Silvercat's post, but I think you're missing Silvercat's point... the way I understood it, it was about deciding for yourself how much you let your heritage or place of birth define you, not whether to respect and be aware of the customs of others.  It's like, say you're born in the Bible Belt of America.  That doesn't mean you have to be a Christian, even though Christianity is very much part of that region's cultural norms.  You can choose to what extent your heritage or the place you grow up defines you: you're not limited or bound to it inextricably, you can react against it.  That doesn't mean that you should be insensitive towards others, though, and I don't think that was what Silvercat was suggesting.

[Kindling]

I see what you mean, Steerpike, and, by extension, what Silvercat means, but... my point ended up being less about how your nationality defines you as a person, although I do still hold by what I and Jurgen said about cultural influences affecting what you think of as acceptable social behaviour.

Instead I think I was saying that the point of nationalities is just to provide a frame of reference. Also, I think, that was my point in starting this thread. Not so I could think to myself, "Ah, Crippled Crow's Danish (for example) now I can stop thinking of him as an individual and just lump him in with the rest of his kind" but rather just to give myself more knowledge about the people I'm talking to and interacting with here, in the form of a broad and loose interpretation of what I know of their nation's culture... and also to satisfy my curiosity about their geographical locations, but that's hardly the point at the moment.

Like I said about labels, I think that while many people do see them as constraining ("what sort of music do you play?" "oh, er, um, well, it's a bit of a mixture") I see it more as just categorising things based on characteristics that they have, rather than imposing on things certain parameters so that they MUST fit their label... instead the label is chosen to fit them...

EDIT: Also, little anecdote to support Jurgen's points about cultural assumptions. A few years ago I knew a Portuguese guy who was studying in England. He was a lovely guy, but one time he did something that, to me, seemed really out of character and outright unpleasant.
He picked up an English girl one night and took her back to his flat, where she stayed the night. In the morning, when they woke up, he told her to get up and make him breakfast. Outraged by what was to her blatant sexism, she stormed out and wasn't seen or heard from again, leaving the Portuguese dude extremely puzzled as to what he had done wrong... He thought his behaviour had been entirely acceptable, based on the cultural moires that he was used to from Portugal.