Low/No Magic Brainstorming

[Soup Nazi]

I'm not sure what I want to do with this, but I figured I would post it anyway. Essentially I have this incomplete vision in my head for a world with an extremely low-level of magic. I want to focus on the Tome of Battle disciplines, and remove spells and magical items from the game (other than legacy weapons, a few relics, and simple alchemy).

Of course that has led me to contemplate what kind of changes would have to be made to a world without magic in the D&D universe.

1. Monsters become much more substantial challenges with their assortment of DR, fast healing, and spell-like abilities, so they would have to be far more rare and exotic, or they would crush adventurers and settlements on the fringes of society. Most encounters would have to be based around humanoid opponents.(Basically CR is not so cut and dry without spells and magic items.)

2. Healing and conditions become much more difficult to overcome, but I figure that alchemists, herbalists, and apothecaries could step in a fill these roles. If healing were skill/craft based then every PC would have access to such things built right into their characters from the beginning. (Healing magic is no longer free; it is going to a regular expense that needs to be acounted for.)

3. The absence of divine magic changes the dynamic of religion in the game. Smaller pagan faiths (like a druid coven, or the worship of a singular patron deity) will have very little influence on the dynamic of the world; no more so than a local mayor, a band of brigands, and other small local adversaries, authorities, and NPCs. SO only those religions of significant social, political, economic, or military power with very large followings are even worth exploring, when it comes to their influence on the setting.

If any of you know have any suggestions, comments, or insight into other things I should account for in this type of low/no magic setting, please speak up and let me know.

Here is a little sample of a church I quickly wrote up, for a setting like this. Its very rough and short, but all I'm doing is brainstorming concepts at this point.

The Church of All Saints  

Though the nations of the world have numerous political, ethnic, cultural, and economic differences, there is one universal truth shared by all: The Church of All Saints. Over the last four centuries, the church and its missionaries and inquisitors have spread the gospel of truth, and purged the pagan faiths, sorcery, and monstrous creatures from the land. It is the ultimate belief of the church that all faiths to have come before them, were twisted and corrupted by the blasphemous work of demons and devils, and it is their ultimate goal to convert the unfaithful to their cause.

Essentially the Church of All Saints feels that the one true god has yet to be discovered. He who created all that is, the heavens, the world, the skies, and the fires below, is a powerful entity of unknown name and origin. It is he who is the only true god. The pagan gods, legends, and heroes of lore, have not been completely eradicated by the church. Many are embraced as prophets, seers, saints, and fables; others are portrayed as villains, demons, devils, and blasphemers. As the influence of the church expands so does their knowledge and understanding of theology, and the closer they come to the ultimate truth.  

The church derives its name from its practice of embracing the ancient deities, heroes, legends, and customs of the people whom they convert, and reinterpreting them as great saints, prophets, and parables. While many lands and peoples initially resist the will the church, the inquisitors gradually weed out the rebels, purge unholy taint from their lands, and mercilessly execute blasphemers. The missionaries of the church educate the youth, spread the new gospel, and through general acts of philanthropy and kindness win the hearts and souls of the people. Rarely has any vestige of the old pagan sorcery and beliefs (other than that which the church allows) lingered longer than a couple centuries after the Church of All Saints begins the conversion.

The Inquisition

The ongoing inquisition of the church has all but completely wiped out the practice of magic. While a handful of reclusive druids and covenants of witches continue wield the power of the mystical arts, the pervasive magic of the days of yore has long since passed. The church feels that magic is the tool of demons and false gods, and their inquisition has been extremely efficient in hunting them down, burning the wicked books and scrolls of the sorcerers and wizards, and purging the fiendish taint of magic from the land. The common man fears and reviles the sinful and dangerous power of magic, and they are quick to turn these blasphemers over to the inquisition, when they learn of their presence within the community.

The inquisitors have been equally effective at hunting the terrible monsters of the lands, and the magical beasts, dragons, aberrations, and other monstrous entities of the world have been exterminated or driven into isolated remote lands like the frozen wastes of the arctic, the inhospitable deserts of the south, deep into primordial forests and jungles, and into the caves and caverns of the underworld. Monstrous creatures are not unknown, but they have become extremely rare fabled creatures, rather than imminent threats to the civilized lands of man. The Inquisition prides themselves on their efficiency in theses endeavors, particularly the purge of the chimeras, and the Great Crusades that lead to the supposed eradication of the dragons.

The Missionaries

The church missions have been equally important to the successful expansion of the budding faith. The missionaries have traveled the world spreading the word and the gospel of the great church. They bring medicine, technology, and money to impoverished suffering people. The missionaries rebuild towns and villages ravaged by war. They treat the sick and injured, negotiate treaties between hostile peoples, and bring peace and prosperity to people and nations that have never known such things.

The progress of the missions has in recent years slowed to a complete crawl. Most of the lands that were open to their ideology and message have already been converted, and they have experienced substantial resistance in the more remote and untamed lands of the northern barbarians (where they have concentrated their efforts for the last 20 years). The resources of the church have been slowly siphoned away from the missions to build massive cathedrals and mosques in the major cities of the world, and to line the pockets of corrupt bishops back home. The once heralded missionaries of the church now seem to be struggling to retain their validity, and further their cause, in an increasingly corrupt and hierarchal bureaucracy.

[Numinous]

I'm really not much for low magic settings, but this sounds pretty cool to me.  The inquisition and missionaries aren't exactly original ideas, but they still feel fresh when you write them.  I am wondering how the church would have managed to exterminate dragons without the use of magic, but I guess those details can be overlooked in the interest of encouraging what could be a very interesting project.  I look forward to more material, if you keep making it.

[Soup Nazi]

I'm really not much for low magic settings, but this sounds pretty cool to me.  The inquisition and missionaries aren't exactly original ideas, but they still feel fresh when you write them.  I am wondering how the church would have managed to exterminate dragons without the use of magic, but I guess those details can be overlooked in the interest of encouraging what could be a very interesting project.  I look forward to more material, if you keep making it.

This setting would be making full use of the Tome of Battle, and the inquisition would be loaded with Crusaders. Experienced crusaders in large numbers should have the power needed to take down dragons, or least to drive them off.

You are right that the concept is nothing new. This is just a brainstorming thread. Nothing here is meant to shake things up, or break new ground just yet. I'm just throwing out concepts, and hoping that in the process something interesting will come out of it. As for more material...as I come up with stuff, I'll toss it in here.

-Peace-

[Tybalt]

I think that this is an interesting take on the concept. You might want to check out the Pendragon RPG which has similarities, magic use being rare and if used is very costly to the wielder. I think you can reduce magic without eliminating it and it can make for a cool game.

[CYMRO]

You might want to check out the Pendragon RPG which has similarities, magic use being rare and if used is very costly to the wielder.

Bleh.  I have never been a fan of this sort of thing.  

If I were you I would just cut down the spells available and retune the damage spells.

[Soup Nazi]

I think that this is an interesting take on the concept. You might want to check out the Pendragon RPG which has similarities, magic use being rare and if used is very costly to the wielder. I think you can reduce magic without eliminating it and it can make for a cool game.

I've played Pendragon, and I'm not interested in this approach. I don't want magic in the game. I want a few relics, legacy weapons, and some alchemy.  

If I were you I would just cut down the spells available and retune the damage spells.

No spells wanted here. I'm looking to purge magic from the world, and make a high flying action adventure based on romance, swashbuckling, and tomb of battle goodies. I figure I'll throw in some intrigue, rogish villains, and Free Mason style secret societies, and things will turn into a setting.

[CYMRO]

I've played Pendragon, and I'm not interested in this approach. I don't want magic in the game. I want a few relics, legacy weapons, and some alchemy.

Check oot my Altvogge link for a good Alchemy skill.

Relics for healing?

[Soup Nazi]

I've played Pendragon, and I'm not interested in this approach. I don't want magic in the game. I want a few relics, legacy weapons, and some alchemy.

Check oot my Altvogge link for a good Alchemy skill.

Relics for healing?

Relics like the holy grail, the lost ark, and various other holy objects from dead or opressed religions from a bygone age. Think Indiana Jones here.

I'll check out Altvogge for alchemy...didn't realize you had stuff in there for it.

-Thanks-

[CYMRO]

I'll check out Altvogge for alchemy...didn't realize you had stuff in there for it.

I did a whole new skill that does not require one to be a caster.  Like historical alchemy wanted to be.

Relics like the holy grail, the lost ark, and various other holy objects from dead or opressed religions from a bygone age. Think Indiana Jones here.

Tres cool.

You can also add minor relics that could aid in healing, like the bits and bones of saints.

"St. Vitus' ankle bone.  The one he danced on.  Only two marks!"
--Friar Tuck, Patrick Bergen's Robin Hood

[Soup Nazi]

I'll check out Altvogge for alchemy...didn't realize you had stuff in there for it.

I did a whole new skill that does not require one to be a caster.  Like historical alchemy wanted to be.

Relics like the holy grail, the lost ark, and various other holy objects from dead or opressed religions from a bygone age. Think Indiana Jones here.

Tres cool.

You can also add minor relics that could aid in healing, like the bits and bones of saints.

"St. Vitus' ankle bone.  The one he danced on.  Only two marks!"
--Friar Tuck, Patrick Bergen's Robin Hood

Love the idea on the bones of saints! fantastic stuff!

I just checked out the Altvogge alchemy and I really like the names and flavor, but I think the DCs are just too high for a campaign without significant magical items and spells to boost your ability.
I'll probably cap the DCs around 30, and raise market values instead. I have no problem with something taking a while to make, but I want it to be possible.

Later today, I'll collect the alchemical items I have compiled thus far (outside of the obvious ones in the PHB), and post them.

[Lmns Crn]

For healing, you might consider using a VP/WP system; one of its strengths relative to a HP system is that unassisted healing works a lot faster. (As long as you're not taking wound damage, you recover from fights relatively quickly with natural rest only.) It decreases reliances on magical healing.

Quite frankly, I'd be very suspicious about things like curative herbalism and alchemy if I were attempting a project like this one. It's very easy to make that sort of thing identical to magic in every way but the name. I'd hate to see you purge magic from your setting, then reinstall half of the same magic (but with a fresh coat of alchemy-paint.)

One thing on my own list of things to work on is surgery and other types of advanced medicine, copied directly from the real world if you like. There's a lot of fun stuff you can find when you consider the days when butchers doubled as surgeons (because they were used to handling raw meat!), you washed your hands after an operation instead of before, whiskey was your only anesthetic, and so on.

[Epic Meepo]

Essentially I have this incomplete vision in my head for a world with an extremely low-level of magic. I want to focus on the Tome of Battle disciplines, and remove spells and magical items from the game (other than legacy weapons, a few relics, and simple alchemy).

Of course that has led me to contemplate what kind of changes would have to be made to a world without magic in the D&D universe.

The absence of divine magic changes the dynamic of religion in the game. Smaller pagan faiths (like a druid coven, or the worship of a singular patron deity) will have very little influence on the dynamic of the world; no more so than a local mayor, a band of brigands, and other small local adversaries, authorities, and NPCs. SO only those religions of significant social, political, economic, or military power with very large followings are even worth exploring, when it comes to their influence on the setting.[/blockquote]
I disagree. Even a religious organization with only a handful of members can influence the entire world if, say, one of those members happened to be a famous artist or powerful politician. The fact that said individual's power stems from something outside of the small religious organization to which he belongs doesn't change the fact that he now has the ability to subtly influence the world in accordance with the principals of his obscure religion.

[Soup Nazi]

For healing, you might consider using a VP/WP system; one of its strengths relative to a HP system is that unassisted healing works a lot faster. (As long as you're not taking wound damage, you recover from fights relatively quickly with natural rest only.) It decreases reliances on magical healing.

I could try that out, but its not the rate of healing that is the concern. D&D is balanced on a 4 encounter per day CR system, and without healing during or between thoese encounters the CRs are greatly effected.

Quite frankly, I'd be very suspicious about things like curative herbalism and alchemy if I were attempting a project like this one. It's very easy to make that sort of thing identical to magic in every way but the name. I'd hate to see you purge magic from your setting, then reinstall half of the same magic (but with a fresh coat of alchemy-paint.)

This is all about flavor. I'm not trying to cut magic because I have a problem with magic. In fact I have no problem changing a few spells or magical items into more flavorful alchemical or herbalist items. Fireball for example could be a potent form of alchemists' fire, and it would not bother me in the slightest. Heal could be an apothecary's potion that drops you into a comatose state for 8 hours, and you awaken fully restored. See what I mean? Certain effects that are integral to D&D can make this transition without hurting the concept; I don't mind slapping a new coat of paint on them if that's what it takes.

One thing on my own list of things to work on is surgery and other types of advanced medicine, copied directly from the real world if you like. There's a lot of fun stuff you can find when you consider the days when butchers doubled as surgeons (because they were used to handling raw meat!), you washed your hands after an operation instead of before, whiskey was your only anesthetic, and so on.

This sounds great. I would be very interested in seeing posts about this if and when you get around to it.

You could probably pull this off better with d20 Modern or d20 Past rules instead of D&D Core rules. The D&D Core relies heavily on magic, but those other two are balanced without it.

That is an option to explore...but then wouldn't Tome of Battle throw things out of wack in D20 past, just as much as removing magic from D&D? Besides I own D&D, but I do not own d20 Past, so I'd only go down that road if I can't make it work with D&D rules.

I disagree. Even a religious organization with only a handful of members can influence the entire world if, say, one of those members happened to be a famous artist or powerful politician. The fact that said individual's power stems from something outside of the small religious organization to which he belongs doesn't change the fact that he now has the ability to subtly influence the world in accordance with the principals of his obscure religion.

A religion's power stems from the size of its following, or its political, economic, or social influence...like I mentioned earlier. If a Pharoah (in the case of the Atan) or an Emperor (in the case of Christianity) throws his power and influence behind a religious movement, then it is no longer a small fry politically, and thus no longer falls into the fringe groups I was talking about.

Big powerful religions all start small, but once they become big and powerful, it becomes exponentially more difficult for small budding religions to expand and sieze greater power.

In D&D divine casters change this dynamic substantially, because they have far more individual power and obvious credibility (they work miracles!) than say the Jehovah's Witnesses, trying to chip at away at larger Christian faiths of today.

A druidic cult in D&D can be a regional power, even if they have no more than a few hundred followers, but in a world without magic, such a tiny group is meaningless.

I feel that I should concentrate on a few very large, influential, and well recognized religious groups that will play a prominent role in the setting, rather than worry about the totem gods of barbarian tribes. I won't have clerics, so the only religion worth thinking about is that which has a direct effect on a large portion of the world. Am I missing something, or is my logic somehow at fault in a way I don't yet see? Let me know.

[Lmns Crn]

A druidic cult in D&D can be a regional power, even if they have no more than a few hundred followers, but in a world without magic, such a tiny group is meaningless.

I feel that I should concentrate on a few very large, influential, and well recognized religious groups that will play a prominent role in the setting, rather than worry about the totem gods of barbarian tribes. I won't have clerics, so the only religion worth thinking about is that which has a direct effect on a large portion of the world. Am I missing something, or is my logic somehow at fault in a way I don't yet see? Let me know.

It's not that the logic is unsound; I think it's possible you might be paying too much attention to the macrocosm and not enough to the microcosm. Missing the trees for the forest, as it were. You've correctly identified this as a matter of scale, but then tied your hands by asserting that only the largest scale is important.

You go ahead and state that a small cult can be a regional power. A regional power isn't a global power, but it's still a power; for the people in the communities where it holds sway, it can be much more real and relevant than any global Great Church. One of the forces large religions have to struggle against when expanding is that small religions have a lot of inertia in their communities, and that's going to make your druidic plantlords or barbarian totem gods (or whatever) very tenacious, even in the face of the Great Church.

I'm not saying small religions should be a priority, because in the grand scheme of things, in the macrocosm, they're not all that important (beyond a simple acknowledgement that opposing viewpoints to the Great Church do exist.) But I don't think it's wise or fair to just wave them away entirely, simply because they don't have magic-wielders among their ranks.

My two cents, of course.

[Soup Nazi]

A druidic cult in D&D can be a regional power, even if they have no more than a few hundred followers, but in a world without magic, such a tiny group is meaningless.

I feel that I should concentrate on a few very large, influential, and well recognized religious groups that will play a prominent role in the setting, rather than worry about the totem gods of barbarian tribes. I won't have clerics, so the only religion worth thinking about is that which has a direct effect on a large portion of the world. Am I missing something, or is my logic somehow at fault in a way I don't yet see? Let me know.

It's not that the logic is unsound; I think it's possible you might be paying too much attention to the macrocosm and not enough to the microcosm. Missing the trees for the forest, as it were. You've correctly identified this as a matter of scale, but then tied your hands by asserting that only the largest scale is important.

You go ahead and state that a small cult can be a regional power. A regional power isn't a global power, but it's still a power; for the people in the communities where it holds sway, it can be much more real and relevant than any global Great Church. One of the forces large religions have to struggle against when expanding is that small religions have a lot of inertia in their communities, and that's going to make your druidic plantlords or barbarian totem gods (or whatever) very tenacious, even in the face of the Great Church.

I'm not saying small religions should be a priority, because in the grand scheme of things, in the macrocosm, they're not all that important (beyond a simple acknowledgement that opposing viewpoints to the Great Church do exist.) But I don't think it's wise or fair to just wave them away entirely, simply because they don't have magic-wielders among their ranks.

My two cents, of course.

Gotcha, understood and agreed. Those kind of local powers are not something to be ignored or swept under the rug when dealing with small areas in and around their area of influence, just like the local mayor, or the band of brigands, I spoke of previously. However in the braod sweeping conceptual stages of a setting, they are completely worthless to concetrate on. That is the stage I am currently at. I have only vague concepts thus far, and I recognize the need to address a few minor mechanical issues before delving in too deeply.

Low/No Magic entails adjustments that have to be dealt with before I jump in headlong and write up a whole world that will never work in the context of the game's actual mechanics. Luckily Tomb of Battle with its pseudo-magical power levels does make things much easier. The only things I really need to deal with are the loss of magical items, area of effect spells, and cure x/ remove x effects which are somewhat essential to character survival. This shouldn't be terribly difficult.