Two-Weapon Fighting: New Ideas for Open Minds

[Xeviat]

I don't want this thread to be a debate, but I do need to explain the problem I wish to fix. Currently there are two things wrong with the TWFing feats: the later feats in the chain give less benefit (TWF and ITWF are mechanically okay, but GTWF and PTWF are horrible), and the feats lack a certain amount of elegance I'd like to see. Feat for feat, it is better to optimize a character for using a weapon/shield or a two-hander than it is to optimize a character for TWFing; I have ran the numbers on this, utilizing sneak attack, elemental weapons, and favored enemy bonus/weapon specialization, and in all cases a two-hander is a better choice (even for those with only moderate strengths).

Those are my beliefs. Again, I don't wish for this thread to be a debate about the above beliefs. Rather, I wish to suggest a potential alternative, and am looking for other mechanically minded players/DMs to help me balance the ideas. I am also looking for a simple program/calculator to determine average damage as well (even though I have a very simple equasion that has been working out nicely; it's just annoying to use it against various ACs at once), so if anyone has one, or knows where to get one, let me know.

With that out of the way, onto the nature of TWFing in theory. Firstly, TWFing is just cool; it has a certain "wow" factor to it. It is difficult to use, so it is rarely seen; when it is, it is just awe inspiring. Logically speaking, it should be more difficult to use two weapons than one, that much is simple, but one could also say that it may be more difficult to defend against two weapons than just one. A TWFer should have an easier time defending against multiple opponents (suposidly this is what Miyamoto Musashi used the style for), because you can keep a weapon on each of them instead of having to split your focus.

Mechanically speaking, since it costs feats, it should give a return worthy of the feats expended.

So, in searching for an elegant fix, I think I may have stumbled upon a quite thought provoking idea. Rather than TWFing simply granting an extra attack when a full attack is taken (which unfairly forces the usually light armored TWFer to stand still rather than utilizing their unencumbered speed), I came up with the idea of having TWFing grant extra actions. This would allow a TWFer to use one weapon to feint (normally a standard action) and the other to attack. A spellcaster could cast a spell, performing the somatic components with their primary hand, and make an attack with their off-hand.

All in all, here is my idea for the core feats of the style (outer feats like Two-Weapon Defense could remain unchanged):

Two-Weapon Fighting (Special Action, no feat)
A character can accept a penalty to hit while taking a full attack action in order to gain an additional standard action attack with their off-hand (either with a weapon or an unarmed strike). I would prefer the off-hand to retain it's current penalties (-4 to hit, 1/2 strength damage), and to have a way of ensuring that smaller weapons are used (such as an additional -2 penalty for utilizing a one-handed weapon). I would also prefer the TWFing feat to remove 4 points of the to hit penalty for utilizing two-weapon fighting (because -4 is the standard "non-proficiency" penalty, and thus such a penalty seems to fit).

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Fighter, General)
Requirements: Dex 13+
Benefit: I would like this feat to reduce the two-weapon fighting penalties by 4 (again the standard non-proficiency penalty) and allow a character to gain the additional off-hand standard action when they take a standard action attack or full-attack action with their primary hand rather than just with a full-attack. This feat does not make a character ambidextrous (because there are some styles of using two weapons where the off-hand weapon is strickly a secondary weapon, such as rapier/dagger, where the secondary weapon is used for feints, defense, and opportunistic attacks).

Ambidexterity (General)
Requirements: Dex 15+
Benefit: This feat would remove all penalties associated with one's off-hand. It would remove the -4 to hit penalty imposed on off-hand attacks, it would allow full strength bonus to be applied to off-hand damage, and it would negate the penalty for using a one-handed off-hand weapon. Technically, a character would no longer have an off-hand, and could take their primary attacks with either hand at no penalty. I would like to extend the benefits of this feat beyond two-weapon fighting, possibly granting some sort of bonus to shield use or to damage with a two-handed weapon; it is a feat that only the very high dex characters would take, and I can see benefits to all sorts of characters.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting:
Requirements: BAB +6, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefits: This feat would allow a character to take an additional full attack action with their off-hand when ever they take a full attack action with their primary hand, thus granting all extra attacks with one feat.

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I will be testing these over the next few days, but I wanted to get some initial reactions. What say you?

[Soup Nazi]

I can break these feats so fast, it'll make your head swim.

Feint, Trip, Sneak Attack. (that's not right...)

Oh you wanna get up from prone? Fient, Sneak Attack.

Oh and did I mention that I have karmic strike, so every time I get hit in melee I can do this?

Throw in sidestep, and now it's just getting ugly.

Throw in double hit, and I can sneak attack three times each time I get hit in melee

Throw in high sword low axe, and it's all over...

Wait lemme show you my frenzied berserker with 10 attacks per round!

Your messing with these too much.

Here's my suggestion. Leave the TWF feats alone. Change ambidexterity to gain an additional off-hand attack at a -15 penalty, and also reduce TWF penalties by 2.

Now things are equal, and THF gets better power attacks, while the TWF gets more damage dice. All other variables are equal. If the TWF invests a fifth feat, into oversized-two-weapon fighting, then they can equal the THF in power attack bonuses. So for an investment of five feats, you surpass THF in damage dealing ability; it's a very feat intensive choice, which may be better spent on other things.

PS. seems kind of odd that I was already following this thread on WotC...

[brainface]

@nastynate

dude, frenzied berserker? isn't it generally agreed upon to be one of the most horrible prc classes, ever? (did they change it to make it NOT kill its own party in 3.5?). Seems obvious a dm that goes about changing a critical combat move in dnd is gonna have to do some more work with other things, especially if he's using splat books.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting:

eh, i like this. rolls the entire feat tree into one feat. less feat trees are always a good idea, imo. ;)

[Soup Nazi]

Sorry if that reference bothered you. I used frenzied berserker because with over-sized twf I could get 10 attacks with a 2:1 power ratio.

Is the rogue who with nothing more than feats, can make three sneak attacks everytime he gets hit in melee seem busted? Never mind that he can can fient, and then sneak attack (all his remaining attacks) whenever he makes a full attack?

This feat tree is Ba-Roken

[Elven Doritos]

Is the rogue who with nothing more than feats, can make three sneak attacks everytime he gets hit in melee seem busted? Never mind that he can can fient, and then sneak attack (all his remaining attacks) whenever he makes a full attack?

Not particularly. That rogue is uesless against elementals and undead...

-Elven Doritos
BAMF

[brainface]

Is the rogue who with nothing more than feats, can make three sneak attacks everytime he gets hit in melee seem busted? Never mind that he can can fient, and then sneak attack (all his remaining attacks) whenever he makes a full attack?

an attack[/i], even if he has Xeviat's improved two-weapon fighting

but my point was mostly "there's a bunch of crazy stuff in complete warrior" and "if you add house rules plus splat books, of course there's gonna be problems".

[Numinous]

Now, I'm not very mechanically inclined, so I can't really help in this argument.  I mean, I couldn't optimise sneak attack if you gave me an instruction manual.  But according to what I've read on various forums, everything is broken if you ask the right person.  I mean take a look at my sig for your answer.  Oops, turned this into a debate, didn't I...  sorry.

[Soup Nazi]

waitwaitwait: does karmic strike allow a standard action, or just like, an attack? if it's just an attack, the rogues going to get just that, an attack, even if he has Xeviat's improved two-weapon fighting

just a standard attack of opportunity.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Fighter, General)
Requirements: Dex 13+
Benefit: I would like this feat to reduce the two-weapon fighting penalties by 4 (again the standard non-proficiency penalty) and allow a character to gain the additional off-hand standard action when they take a standard attack or full-attack with their primary hand rather than just with a full-attack. This feat does not make a character ambidextrous (because there are some styles of using two weapons where the off-hand weapon is strickly a secondary weapon, such as rapier/dagger, where the secondary weapon is used for feints, defense, and opportunistic attacks).

This works with attacks of opportunity as written. Fienting whenever you feel like it is broken when you've got sneak attack as an option.

Not particularly. That rogue is uesless against elementals and undead...

I hope you're kidding...he kills fighters dead. Just becuse he has a weakness don't mean the mechanic aren't broken. A TWF rogue who can make all but one of his attacks a sneak attack during the full attack action is broken. No doubt about it. And this feat tree actually grants one more attack per round to a TWF, which should almost always be a fient.

Yep constructs and undead cause this character trouble, but um do those numbers seem a little unreal? Just because he can't smite golems and elementals doesn't mean the ability isn't broken. Titans, Dragons, Humanoids, and Giants are total chumps to this guy.

Yep broken. Just a preliminary write up I threw together of a  human rogue 10 / fighter 10, was dealing an average of almost 2000 damage per round...tell me does that seem wrong to anyone?

Oh and don't bother attacking him, because he was dealing a good 200-300 points of damage in retaliation for each attack that hit him (with double hit, karmic strike, and the one fient/three sneak attack combo).

Trust me I'm pretty good at optimizing, but this took hardly any effort at all on my part. It should become apparent to any competent optimizer in no time.

Xeviat you have to tweak these, and take away fient as an option...Oh my busted.

[CYMRO]

Firstly, TWFing is just cool; it has a certain "wow" factor to it.

Darn tootin'!  And it is too great a fantasy staple to be assigned such a wussy set of mechanics and feats as Wotc gave it.




I messed around with TWF for Altvogge, and this is what I came up with:

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisite:  Dex 13.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 4.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -8 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
See Two Weapon Fighting in the Combat Chapter for a full breakdown of  bonuses and penalties.
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.

 

IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting (or Multiweapon Fighting), base attack bonus +6.
Benefit:  Your penalties, both with primary and offhand weapons, are reduced by 2.   In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon or weapons, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -4 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, you can only get a single extra attack with an off-hand weapon.
See Two Weapon Fighting in the Combat Chapter for a full breakdown of  bonuses and penalties.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.


GREATER TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting (or Multiweapon Fighting), base attack bonus +11.
Benefit:  You suffer no penalties with your primary weapon, you gain a bonus on your first offhand attack, and suffer no penalty on your second offhand attack.  You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -2 penalty.
See Two Weapon Fighting in the Combat Chapter for a full breakdown of  bonuses and penalties.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.
An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

SUPERIOR TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting (or Multiweapon Fighting), base attack bonus +16.
Benefit:  You suffer no penalties with your primary weapon; you gain a bonus on your first and second off hand attack, and suffer no penalty on your third offhand attack.  You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -2 penalty.
See Two Weapon Fighting in the Combat Chapter for a full breakdown of bonuses and penalties.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.


TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.


IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Defense.
Benefit:  Your shield bonus to your AC increases to +2 when wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes).
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +3.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.


GREATER TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Improved Two-Weapon Defense.
Benefit: Your shield bonus to your AC increases to +4 when wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes).
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +5.
Special: A warrior may select this feat as one of his warrior bonus feats.

[Soup Nazi]

Cymro those are more along the lines of what I was thinking. Closer to the original and far less abusable. Although personally I think TWD is terrible.

I'd advocate making combat expertise work for TWF, like power attack works for THF. If you've got two weapons, it grants a +2 AC bonus for each -1 you take on attack rolls.

I'd also suggest limiting power attack to a -5 penalty on attack rolls. That makes expertise and power attack functionally balanced. Power attack is the most powerful core combat feat IMHO, and it is the source of the THF power imbalance.

 :clap:

[Xeviat]

Um, feint only allows your next attack to ignore the opponent's Dexterity bonus to AC; not all your attacks in a round. Thus you would have to feint with all of your offhand attacks and attack with all of your primary attacks to get that many sneak attacks.

Or you can just flank an opponent.

And again, feint is Bluff+Cha vs. BAB+Sense Motive+Wis. Even with just Bluff vs. BAB, the rogue's only got a 3 point lead over a warrior, and won't succeed their feints all of the time. I think you're overreacting just a little bit.

As for kharmic strike, I was refering to standard action attacks. You get a standard action and a move action each round; you can spend both to use a full round action. Thus, ITWF only kicks in when you use your standard action to take an attack action, and GTWF only kicks in when you use a full round action to perform a full attack.

Why is it that someone who can use each hand with equal proficiency can't move an attack at the same time without buying yet another feat?

[Xeviat]

Oh and PS: this debate is based on what I posted, not TWFing in general. Thus the debate is allowed, I want these to be balanced.

CYMRO, I'm confused about the penalties that each of your feats have. Are you implying that the bonus off-hand attacks are at anything less than -5 below the first off-hand attack? That just doesn't seem to flow with the current ruleset.

[Soup Nazi]

Um, feint only allows your next attack to ignore the opponent's Dexterity bonus to AC; not all your attacks in a round. Thus you would have to feint with all of your offhand attacks and attack with all of your primary attacks to get that many sneak attacks.

Seems I missed that glaring oversight. I guess you can only do 4 feint/sneak attacks per round then...still buff...this will cut the damage down to about 1200 per round with my fighter 10 / rogue 10. Paltry.

As for kharmic strike, I was refering to standard action attacks. You get a standard action and a move action each round; you can spend both to use a full round action. Thus, ITWF only kicks in when you use your standard action to take an attack action, and GTWF only kicks in when you use a full round action to perform a full attack.

Just clean up the wording then. As written you can take an additional standard action with your off hand during any standard attack; which does indeed let your feint during each AoO, and with double hit + karmic strike you can still squeeze in two feint/sneak attacks, or four regular attacks in retaliation to being hit.

Not trying to nit pick. I don't want you to unleash a monster when you just want to fix something.

[Xeviat]

Alright, I'll fix that; But again, your fighter 10/rogue 10 can sneak attack with all 8 attacks if your friendly wizard or cleric just summons a creature to flank with you; or if your party cleric or party warrior just gets in the mix and flanks.

Flanking sneak attacks are so much more dangerous than feinting sneak attacks. Feint only exists because you can't flank a barbarian or a rogue, and for duals. And dualists are going to have sense motive.

I will be suggesting new feint rules eventually though.

[Soup Nazi]

NP (I just think sneak attacks should be soo easy, or able to be unleashed with AoOs in multiples)At least flanking requires some tactics...free feints are dangerous hence the eratta of the invisible blade.

-Peace-