The Arena [News and Offical Disucssion]

[Captain Obvious]

I like this and so far I think this is how battles have been run. Even Endless_Helix did his binding in our match, and bindings are 24 hour durations.

Don't bindings take like 20 minutes or something? (sorry if this is way off. I don't have my ToM with me)

What about the warlock invoc's that have 24 hr durations? Some stuff like that seem like it would be prepped first thing in the morning. if they can't do this there may need to be defenitions of what can and can't be done (remember that spell preparation is done in the morning. What other stuff should go in a similar category).

[Poseptune]

Any one could have saved their money as well, and then before the match get someone to buff you up with powerful spells and such. I mean, by what you want to do a non spellcasting class is very limited, and the spellcaster has an almost infinite prep time (ok more around 600 rounds). Now if someone is checking combatants out before they enter the arena, to make sure they are not pre-buffed, then all combatants start off on equal ground. This is the way I think that it should be run.

As for the binding, maybe he didn't. He was doodling in the dirt. I'll have to check with my ToM to see for sure. If it does take 20 minutes to bind then I think it would be ok, and put a rule that all bindings must be made in the presence of an arena official. Other class abilities, would have to be examined on a case by case basis. I would say no to invocations, and anything else that can be done in a full round or less.

[Captain Obvious]

conversation continued from 2v2v2 thread
[ooc] Alright, but being able to cast stuff on people pre-battle is a pretty major change. If this had been made allowed, i would have appreciated it if everyon, not just you, got told about it.

What spells and effects could be used?
- Could i charm you?
- Bestow curse you?
- Could i fireball you? if not, could i delayed fireball you (i.e. use my five prep turns to drop 5 DBF's all set to co off on turn one)
- I would assume all of these are not allowed, but i would have assumed anything that can affect the others was unnalowed pre-battle.

What is the Ruling on this Xathan? [/ooc]

[Poseptune]

[ooc] Alright, but being able to cast stuff on people pre-battle is a pretty major change. If this had been made allowed, i would have appreciated it if everyon, not just you, got told about it.

What spells and effects could be used?
- Could i charm you?
- Bestow curse you?
- Could i fireball you? if not, could i delayed fireball you (i.e. use my five prep turns to drop 5 DBF's all set to co off on turn one)
- I would assume all of these are not allowed, but i would have assumed anything that can affect the others was unnalowed pre-battle.

What is the Ruling on this Xathan? [/ooc]

I was not told I asked.
I did not cast it on you, I cast it on a space in the arena.
I would imagine direct attacks (that includes charm and such) would be off limits or spaces occupied by combatants.
I imagine a delayed firball cast on a space that is not occupied by a combatant that doesn't go off until the first round of actual combat would be ok. If direct attacks were allowed I would have used earthen grasp.

I had only come up with the strategy when I noticed that people were taking more than one pre-combat round. I was ok with only one pre-combat round and using my wand of silence during combat. Since it was not an attack per se, I asked if it was ok.

[Captain Obvious]

I guess that all works.
What would be the defenition of direct attack though?
Doesn't target a player and doesn't cause damage?
That would seem to make sense, but what it it was area effect and causes some other detrimental effect (like ability damage, slow, curse, entanglement, etc).

I see now from this battle's set up that there are lots of little tweaks that need to be made to  the system.

[Darkxarth]

Maybe you can only cast spells that affect yourself or your allies (be it an animal companion, a familiar, an Undead minion, etc.).  Spells that affect the environment, such as Evard's Black Tentacles, Web, or Silence ( ;) ) would be off-limits.  Just my  :2cents:

I'm okay to continue the current match as is though.  That's why this is the practice time.  Everyone's still figuring out the rules.  Whether it's spells that last all day or the restrictions on pre-combat actions, no one, not even Xathan, knows what's going to work out as balanced or unbalanced.

[Poseptune]

I guess that all works.
What would be the defenition of direct attack though?
Doesn't target a player and doesn't cause damage?
That would seem to make sense, but what it it was area effect and causes some other detrimental effect (like ability damage, slow, curse, entanglement, etc).

I see now from this battle's set up that there are lots of little tweaks that need to be made to  the system.

Disclaimer: I am only giving my opion and Xathan's word on this is final, so if after reaing this he decides that silence is not allowed I will accept it.

I would define a direct attack spells cast and abilities used on a charater, or cast/ used near enough to a character to cause some sort of damage (splash, ability, etc...) or cause a saving throw becaus of casting directly on a character (charm, silence(if cast on a person), etc..). (I would also think that animals and other creatures allied with opponents are subject to same rule)

I would say that things like silence, illusions, fog cloud, shape stone (to make a wall, steps, other things that don't touch the opponent or cause damage), delayed spell that is delayed until init of first round, darkness, entangle or such spell cast where no opponent was within the area (To give yourself an area someone would have to pass through to get to you for example)) would be allowed. These are just a few examples. I would think a combatant would also be able to dispel these allowed arena manipulating spells (not dispeling buffs until first round of combat, ewww a delayed Mordenkainen's Disjunction would be EVIL!!)


I just think this would vary strategies from buff and fight, to some interesting fights.

[Captain Obvious]

I am also fine with continuing the match. I just want to discuss how these rules should work, now and more importantly, for the future.

Maybe you can only cast spells that affect yourself or your allies (be it an animal companion, a familiar, an Undead minion, etc.). Spells that affect the environment, such as Evard's Black Tentacles, Web, or Silence (;)) would be off-limits. Just my  

I would define a direct attack spells cast and abilities used on a charater, or cast/ used near enough to a character to cause some sort of damage (splash, ability, etc...) or cause a saving throw becaus of casting directly on a character (charm, silence(if cast on a person), etc..). (I would also think that animals and other creatures allied with opponents are subject to same rule)

I would say that things like silence, illusions, fog cloud, shape stone (to make a wall, steps, other things that don't touch the opponent or cause damage), delayed spell that is delayed until init of first round, darkness, entangle or such spell cast where no opponent was within the area (To give yourself an area someone would have to pass through to get to you for example)) would be allowed. These are just a few examples. I would think a combatant would also be able to dispel these allowed arena manipulating spells (not dispeling buffs until first round of combat, ewww a delayed Mordenkainen's Disjunction would be EVIL!!)
[/quote]
I agree, this could make for some really interesting battles. being abe to change the battlefeild would be awesome. It does create a greater need for restrictions and outside refereeing (more freedom requires more restrictions - it always has, always will).
One major thing is that we would have to do each round of our prep one at a time, back and forth (and roll initiative beforehand).
Also, it just realised that to get around Thanatos' silenceing, we could have just walked to the side as our move action on the round when we firt can't hear, and then cast the spell when we're outside of the radius of the silence spell.

[Darkxarth]

Also, it just realised that to get around Thanatos' silenceing, we could have just walked to the side as our move action on the round when we firt can't hear, and then cast the spell when we're outside of the radius of the silence spell.

True, I didn't think about that.  Oh well.

[Xathan]

[ooc]OFFICAL PRE COMBAT ACTION RULES

You may, during pre combat rounds, cast any of the following spells, manifest any of the following powers, or activate any of the following effects:

1) Any spell or ability that targets you, an ally, or a willing foe.
2) Any spell or ability that targets a point in space within the arena. (This includes area spells, delayed blast fireballs, wall spells, etc.)

You have two hours, prior to combat, in which you can activate any effect with a duration measured in a time increment of hours or longer. (These spells can only be cast on you or an ally, not a point in space)

 You have ten miniutes, prior to combat, in which you can activate any effect with a duration measured in miniutes or longer.  

You have five rounds, prior to combat, in which you can activate any effect.

Players roll initiative at the beginning of posting in the arena thread, to determine who's goes first in pre combat rounds.[/ooc]

These are, of course, subject to revision. Thoughts?

[Captain Obvious]

These all look good. I'll agree to them if everyone else is fine with it.

one question

2) Any spell or ability that targets a point in space within the arena. (This includes area spells, delayed blast fireballs, wall spells, etc.)

Does this include damaging spells? like normal fireball, etc?
What if they deal ability damage?
Or put people to sleep?
Or give a penalty to saves?
Or something?....

Also, is ther any vegetation inside the arena? (for entanglement spells) or bugs in the sand? (for giant vermin spells)

[Xathan]

Ok, the intent of rule two is to prevent people from attacking someone before combat starts but still allow things like the silence spell, or a resiliant sphere, or a wall spell, or an antimagic field. How would anyone suggest wording it so that it becomes clear that is what I'm going for?

As for vegetation: Depends on the map, not on this one.

For Vermin: yes, there will be some vermin crawling about or flying around.

[Poseptune]

Ok, the intent of rule two is to prevent people from attacking someone before combat starts but still allow things like the silence spell, or a resiliant sphere, or a wall spell, or an antimagic field. How would anyone suggest wording it so that it becomes clear that is what I'm going for?

How's this?
[ooc]
2) Any spell or ability that targets a point in space within the arena and is not an attack. An attack is a spell cast or ability used on a charater, or cast/ used near enough to a character to cause some sort of damage (splash, ability, etc...), or cause a saving throw (Exceptions spells that have harmless effects, such as some illusions). An attack spell or ability that is delayed until the first round of combat is also permissable during this time.[/ooc]

[ooc]
Other questions:
How far can we move from our staring positions during the pre-combat?
Can we enter the arena invisible? (I would say no, but I want to know the offical ruling.  )
[/ooc]

[mneme]

Q's: so what about Contingency?  Or Permenancy (it going without saying that xp spent on a spell still counts against your "weight class" -- so a mage with self-cast Permenancy spells would generally be one level below the weight class they qualified for)?  Or even Shrink Item (which has a duration of days or weeks).

On a related topic, I'm not sure how possession animals work in this context: Do you have to have ranks in Handle Animal to work with them?  Play out teaching them "tricks"?  Can you pay for both the animals and their training?

Similarly, what about bought spells -- since there's an arbitrary amount of permanent prep time (more or less), can you buy scrolls or spellbook copying (1st and 2nd level spells are cheaper as scrolls -- unless scrolls purchased for this purpose are still 5* cost?) and try to make rolls in-thread to copy them into your spellbook?

It's worth noting that while I've got my 4th level character close to done (I've also get a 16 that will take more time -- there are an -incredible- number of options at that level), I'm finding it hard to figure out how to spend money.  At 3300 GP, you can't get permanent magic items, so once scrolls have been purchased (at 5* cost), a non-armor wearing character's got a lot of free cash to try to figure out how to spend.

[Poseptune]

On a related topic, I'm not sure how possession animals work in this context: Do you have to have ranks in Handle Animal to work with them?  Play out teaching them "tricks"?  Can you pay for both the animals and their training?

Similarly, what about bought spells -- since there's an arbitrary amount of permanent prep time (more or less), can you buy scrolls or spellbook copying (1st and 2nd level spells are cheaper as scrolls -- unless scrolls purchased for this purpose are still 5* cost?) and try to make rolls in-thread to copy them into your spellbook?
[/quote]

hhmmm spellbooks have not come up yet. At least I don't think they have. I would imagine the arena would have a library or other spellcasters that would allow people to copy (You would have to still pay the cost of copying). Also combatants could possible exchange spells in the IC thread as well.