Post-Industrial Fantasy

[O Senhor Leetz]

Now, one my of my key beliefs in settings - well, in life in general - is that what one decides to leave out is just as important as what one decides to put in. Arga, being a Bronze Age, quasi-mythical setting, does not allow for many things to be included.

One of my favorite periods in history is late 19th, early 20th century Europe, Pre-WWI, post industrialization: massive social upheavals, technological jumps, increased political thinking, colonization and imperialism, cosmopolitanism, etc. As I'm sure a few of us have, I've always thought about what would happen if you took your classic medieval fantasy setting, and pushed the time frame forward about 1,000 years taking into account that the non-adventuring populace were not content to farm oats and serve ale to wizards, and that they were actually intelligent and mananged to invent things, without magic, to make their lives easier: watermills, steam engines, printing presses, factories, etc. This would also assume that there would not be the overly-done cliche of Magic vs. Technology, that they would have progressed side-by-side and adjusted to each other, instead of having the black-white dicatomy that seems to prevalent. I was never convinced that a steam engine, which is nothing more technological than tubes, water, and fire, could be interrupted by magic, and vice versa.

This setting would not be a lightly flavored 1900 Europe dashed with the occasional wizard or ogre, but a serious, but still, "experiment" to take a classic fantasy and fast-forward it to a time remaniscant of early 20th Earth.

Something to note: I loved the Lexicon project, and was sad to see that it seemingly died off. It, however, was the thing that really got me starting thinking along these lines, as I loved loved loved the route it was taking. I will heavily and shamelessy borrow from it.

DO'S : Make the setting plausible, if not believable. While, sure, wizards exist and magic exists, they are the extreme minority. The world would presumably advance around them. Ancient cabals and dark cults may work behind the scenes and weild power beyond normal mortals, but even a dozen wizards can only do so much against a standing army of 200,000 men armed with rifles. Bullets are bullets, after all.

Make it fantasy. From the ground up, not by inserting sorcerer as Franz Ferdinand. Im thinking as far as having very little terrestrial borrowing. No horses, no cows, no pigs. Strange animals, strange trees. Cavalry charges on armored, six-legged repitilian things, cross-country caravans of giant pack-beetles, birds with wings that glow as they flap, mountain passes plagued by the devolved ancestors of once great draconic beasts, pesky street fey: think Oscar Wilde through way of Guillermo del Toro.

Interesting political and religious unpheavals: fantasy-tinged communist revolutions, secret anarchist party meetings, crumbling, bloated monarchies, nascent republics, occupied nations, political intrigue, etc. Universities, museums, news-papers.

A backdrop of war would be an excellent source of conflict. Either on-going, recently ended, or heating up, a WWI trench warfare stalemate would create excellent sources of conflict and interest without having war sweeping across much of the land. The setting would be a quasi-Europe through way of the the Far East and Levant, seasoned with wierd.  

DON'TS: Have the blatant and troupe magic vs. technology. They should co-exist and compliment each other, even if it is sometimes violent. It should be assumed that the world advanced naturally, with considerances of both magic and technology and how they would plausibly influence each other.One or the other should never seem forced, they should both seem natural and believable.

Avoid lands and nations with clear-cut metaphors. No "Republic Nations vs. Monarchy Nation." Everything should be fluid and the world a thousand shades of gray. Same with having Nation A be a thinly veiled England and Nation B be thinly veiled France. That being said, history is the best influence there is, and borrowing will and should happen, but parts and pieces that should mesh together to make a new whole.

*Exhale*. Ok, what do we think?

[LordVreeg]

I remember when I really started dealing with the effects of magic in a setting.  I was working with some of the 'what-if' questions in terms of a small society that had a pretty advanced artificer background, and the more I wrote, the more pieces I had to fill in.  

The particular rules of a setting is something I often call the 'Physics Engine' of the game.  That makes magic part of the physics of the setting. That's part of what you are talking when you talk about the integration of the two as opposed to a conflict.

The upshot of this is that I realized a few things, before I go too far.  I realized that magic had created less of a reliance on formal technology in my setting. (I say formal technology, as the integration mentioned above really makes magic part of technology, not seperate).  
Celtricia is actually, based on social, political, and economic factors, more of "Age of Reason/Age of Enlightenment" setting when compared to the development of the RW.

The only bit of real advice that comes from this maundering is that to really get a handle on the effects of magic, you have to really understand the fequency distribution of magic users in your setting, and what type of magic is available at what level to who.

 

[Superfluous Crow]

Sweet: pesky Dickensian street fey. This brings another question to the forefront though; how has the supernatural world evolved alongside the material world over this quintessential millenia? Are the things that go bump in the dark engaging in urban migration as well? Seeing as you want everything to be integrated more than opposed, I assume that the classical beasts and monsters will just as influenced by the rise of industry. Polluted dryads? Coal golems? Alley nymphs? Sewer dragons?

EDIT: I was also sad to see the Lexicon die out. Bring it back people!

[LD]

>>EDIT: I was also sad to see the Lexicon die out. Bring it back people!

I think it ended because Sarisa disappeared and potentially people were waiting for the official map to be posted; I know that I kept writing entries, but no one else seemed to be contributing when we moved on to D and E.

>>No "Republic Nations vs. Monarchy Nation."

How would that work? Isn't a country either a Republic, or a Democracy, or a Monarchy/Empire, or a Dictatorship, or an Oligarchy, etc. How could you mix the concepts? Perhaps what you are intending to avoid is more along the lines of the pseudo-England, or "good" republic vs. evil monarchies, etc?

[LoA]

This sounds awesome! I did something similar only set it in a twenties dieselpunky world (link in SIG). I'm still working on fleshing it out more, but i'm hoping to make substantial progress in a week or two. That said, you'll find it's pretty much the opposite of what you're doing. Magic vs. Technology is there, although they could coexist and theres even one country who's blending the two together. And the republic vs. monarchy thing is a huge trope in my setting. So if you want to see how NOT to do your setting, feel free to check mine out.

[Ghostman]

Make the setting plausible, if not believable. While, sure, wizards exist and magic exists, they are the extreme minority.

You'll need to address the question WHY they are such a minority, in spite of technological and social developments. The more your magic system resembles pseudoscience, the more tricky this might prove. Consider such points as  spellbooks scribbled painstakingly by hand VS spellbooks mass-produced via printing press, and sorcery taught by archaic master-apprentice system VS sorcery taught on lectures in a university.

Of course, there are ways to deal with these questions (eg. magic is inborn, not learned), just be sure to have the capabilities and limits of magic well defined from the start.

[O Senhor Leetz]

I was thinking about going with a darker take on humanity, where after they arrived in the settings geographical area, they warred with, and defeated, the indiginous denizans - some type of proto-elves mayhaps. I want magic to be in the setting, but be something that was much more prevalent in the past.

I've began to think about one nation, Vos-Vala, which would be the oldest surviving state in the realms of man, in which the throne room hall would be filled with ancient, petrified soldiers when the Kings of Vos-Vala founded the land and rode basilisks into battle. Throughout the country, and neighbouring lands with which they may have warred, one could occasionally find pieces of petrified soldiers from soldiers long past. However, now the basilisks are extinct, for one reason or another, but there is no doubt that they did exist.

It would be a humanocentric world that was once a rich fantasy. The bones of ogres and trolls may be present in an exhibit in a metropolises museum and noble and wealthy families would covet elven heirloom jewelery or swords. Excedeingly ancient dwarven tombs may be unearthed by newly dug mines.

But thats not to say all traces of "fantasy" are just relics of the past. Alley-imps and urban fey would be problems in cities just like pidgeons or squirrels are. Fisherman would set sail to hunt giant, carapaced creatures of the sea. Travelling merchants would ride giant beetles across glass-covered deserts. Rural villages would be plagued by any manner of things that go bump in the night: were-folk, the undead, out-of-controlled golems, etc. But none of things would be present on the industrial level. No legions of zombie warriors, no factories filled with ogre workers. These things would be localized and rare. The Were-folk of Quis, the Ghost Sailors of the Easterly Isles, the savage harpies of the Sea of Cloves, etc. I'm trying to find the perfect and elusive balance of magic - not too much where it doesn't make sense or loses its, well, magic. And not too little where it feels like a rehash of 1900s Europe + a goblin.

[SA]

Perhaps full-blooded humans are naturally incapable of magic. They have significantly reduced magic across teh world through imperialism, cultural assimilation and the occasional genocide. Some "exotic"-blooded humans might have the ability, but all half-casts are stigmatised by their mixed heritage.

Perhaps divination can be used to discover technologies/resources etcetera. Society could advance centuries in a matter of years, and there could be a period of monstrous upheaval where nobody really understands the implications of all their sudden discoveries. If, for example, non-humans and mixbloods can literally dowse for petroleum or sustain a human body while a doctor performs surgery on it, their perceived inferiority and evident utility might play off each other in interesting ways.

I read "Alley-imps" as "Alley pimps". Maybe they aren't mutually exclusive?

[Superfluous Crow]

I really like the visuals you paint here. This could be very, very good.
Working off Sanguine's idea of magic-incapable humans they could either rely on something enslaved/ensorcelled or perhaps an imported substance. Charybdic tea?  
That would be the perfect cue to introduce the North Valentean Trading Company. :p

[O Senhor Leetz]

I think the easiest way to start this setting would be to focus on a single city, preferably a independent, cosmopolitan port that would give good reason to explain anything that would be in the city. Venice may be a good starting point. Or maybe a London-Venice-Hong Kong hybrid.

As for magic, I was thinking that just because it did exist, it wasnt a carte blanche. Some types of traditional gaming magic wouldnt even exists - maybe healing magic could be one of those, hence the development of modern medicine. I would prefer magic to be heavily ritualized, time-consuming, and always coming with a heaby price.

[Superfluous Crow]

Other viable starting points:
1) heavily industrialized monarchic capital city.
This would really showcase the setting's time period and available technology while remaining fairly limited in scope so you can concentrate on developing a few elements at the time.
2) A colony.
You could build up to writing on the other nations by referencing them in your description of the colony while simultaneously revealing one of the larger imperial factions.  
3) A culture-clash trade hub
You mentioned Hong Kong yourself and a city where the overseas merchants are starting to outnumber the locals might be a good initial starting point with a clear conflict and two or more countries woven into the tale of the city.

[Steerpike]

If you haven't already, you might want to do some quick research into the magical orders and secret societies that sprang up at the time - Theosophy, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and other factions that participated in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century occult revival.

[O Senhor Leetz]

A colony would be cool, but I dont think it brins enough "age" to the party.

Something like Hong Kong, or Goa, or what have you, would be an excellent point as well. A "civilized" city on the edge of a "dark" continent, lots of movement, a great place to create adventure hooks, etc.

Or the city could be the last "Old World" port before the other lands began, so it would have even better access to all realms.

[O Senhor Leetz]

Thought of one idea for a social club/cult: The Order of the Saffron Sparrows. They would be a new organization based off of an ancient Aldrathi (read: elves) pleasure cult called Quín'mä Suál. A mix of poets, artists, left-wing thinkers, and hedonists, for the most part they would be pretty self-interested, although there are rumors of various people of importance that partake in the more carnal activities of the Order, who in turn finance it. Underneath the skin, so to speak, the Order also specializes in searching for, smuggling, and selling Aldrathi poems, scrolls, and philosophical works.

[Xathan]

First of all I want to say this setting seems awesome. I love industrial fantasy (Have dabbled with it myself in the past and probably will in the future), and you're doing it in a way that seems very, very believable which is hard to do.

That being said, it feels believable because I could see this setting happening on Earth. The fantasy elements, since they're so distant in the past and now minor problems in the present, have little influence on present day world - and thus far I haven't seen anything that you couldn't plop down in a version of Earth that has Dresden Files levels of magic, discounting the need to rewrite some history. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it doesn't seem to be what you're going for.

So with that being said - I'd love to see something for this setting that couldn't exist on an magically infused Earth. Is there a nation where the magic users have held out in spite of technology? Woodlands no man dares traverse due to the beings that live within, creating a barrier more effective than any mountain? Etc - anything that helps make the world feel different from Earth, or are you going for the feel of Earth with some magical elements and I just misunderstood? I guess the reason I'm asking is because you mentioned you didn't want to lose the feel of the magical in the world...but right now the magic feels like a side-note in the world. It's there, we're aware of it...but if you live in a city it seems like there's a decent chance you'll never directly see anything magical with your own eyes, which seems contrary to your prior statement.

Also, final question - with the advent of complex firearms, machine guns, tanks, airplanes, etc, how big a threat do magical creatures hold? Are they nuisances, terrors to civilians but only mildly dangerous to police/military, or are there any that could pose a danger to a military force, either alone or as part of a pack?