Xev20 attempt #2

[Xeviat]

Rather than using new thread space, this thread will be for discussing little fiddly bits of a future house system I'm putting together (because I can't stop fiddling with other games and it's reeking havoc on my players).

Also, I'm back!

[Nomadic]

I am ready to resume work on my own game system, prodded after several of my players noted that the direction I am going with my house rules is threatening to attain life. Rather than fight it, I'm dusting off my "Xev20" system notes so I can get back to it.

I don't want to bog down the forums with inappropriately placed topics. Even though my system is going to be designed with my setting in mind, as a completionist, I am hoping to make the system itself rather setting neutral (though not theme neutral). Would "Meta" be the best place?

Also, I'm back!

Welcome back. As to where, wherever you think would be appropriate. Meta sounds fine, and we're pretty loose about rules here. As long as you don't spam it in multiple areas and it makes sense to go there I don't care :) .

[Xeviat]

Sweet. Then I'll repurpose this thread.

The first thing I want to work on is broadening the ability scores. My system is likely going to be a modification of Mutants and Masterminds, with some of the "non-choices" built into the level structure and with an entirely different baseline (what I mean is that your base attack and defense scores are set by level, not by points you have to spend). As for the ability scores, I want to have 4 physicals and 4 mentals (which links in with my magic system, but as that is setting specific I am not worried about it just yet).

Currently, M&M has 4 physicals: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Agility. I want to have 4 mentals to pair up with them as well, roughly defined as the following: "Mental Power", "Mental Flexibility", "Mental Resilience", and "Mental Quickness". At first, they seem to be easily Charisma for mental power, Intelligence for mental flexibility, Wisdom for mental resilience, and Perception for mental quickness, but I'm not entirely certain now. I'd like to hear some thoughts on how to parse up the different aspects of the mind in such a way as to be able to define many different character archetypes (preferably in ways that D&D's standard six scores don't quite allow).

Thoughts?

[sparkletwist]

Are you going to have skills? If not, I like the idea of breaking down the traits into a lot of divisions. It kind of becomes a skill system in its own right, then; I'm reminded of how Strands of FATE does it.

However, if you are going to have skills, having this many base traits can sometimes lead to confusion, because you're constantly trying to figure out what stat to associate with what skill. For example, where exactly do you draw the line between dexterity and agility? And it gets even more confusing when dealing with mental and social stats, because different people (players and characters alike) often process information differently, so it becomes difficult to figure out exactly what aspect of the mind can be used to solve a mental and/or social problem.

For what it's worth, in Asura, I blur the line between physical and mental traits, and give each trait a dimension of both. Rather, the trait is based on what you can do with it.

They break down as follows:
- Power = physical strength and raw speed
- Grace = dexterity and agility, but also social acumen
- Vitality = physical and mental resilience
- Senses = observation, social perception, and fine motor control (for ranged combat)
- Mind = wisdom and intelligence, as well as more intellectual social interaction

Just my two cents. :)

[Xeviat]

I am going to have skills, at least by my current ideas, but I am thinking of dissasociating skills from abilities in a similar way as "World of Darkness" does. Take Athletics for instance: if you are hurrying across slippery rocks, athletics+dexterity; if you're racing, athletics+agility; if you're running long distance, athletics+constitution; if you're climbing a rope, athletics+strength. I think this can alleviate the problem you think that could crop up, with player connotations of abilities.

As for the difference between Agility and Dexterity: Agility is a measure of quickness, while Dexterity is a measure of coordination and flexibility. A marksman is dexterous, but he might not be agile (unless he's a quickdraw). An Alligator is fairly agile, but not very dexterous. A sprinter who cannot run on non-level ground is agile, but not dexterous. I'm dexterous (typing, shooting, video game skills) but not very agile.

And interesting thoughts on the abilities. If you were going to divide the mentals, though, how would you quantify "mental speed" vs. "mental flexibility"?

[sparkletwist]

I think that idea of not making a "hard association" can work, though in some cases, that can just defer the problem of deciding what trait to associate with a skill/action from design-time, where you have theoretically unlimited time to think of it, to play-time, when you have to make a snap-ruling that players might well still treat as precedent. It also doesn't eliminate the problem (and may make it worse because you don't have time to think it through) that some stats become "god-stats" by virtue of being used a whole lot more. So, it might help, but it might make things worse.

Anyway, what you stated is not "the" difference between agility and dexterity: that's your opinion of the difference. I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just pointing out the limitation. As long as you are completely consistent in using that definition and your players are clear on that being the definition you're using, of course, it doesn't present a big problem, but in practice, that isn't always easy. Like I stated before, for most mental attributes, the distinction becomes even less clear-cut, and I think you're going to run into some ambiguous cases because (almost?) every system that tries to define a lot of core traits does.

Because of what I said, I wouldn't try to quantify this distinction. I'd think of it in terms of what you can DO with it. :)

[Xeviat]

But what would you define as the traits associated with "Mental Quickness", "Mental Resilience", and "Mental Flexibility". =)

And thanks for the thoughts. I plan on being completely consistent with things.

[sparkletwist]

Rather than coin "clever" words that can be misinterpreted, why don't you just name the stats precisely what they are? Power, Resilience, Flexibility, and Quickness, both Physical and Mental. I think that doing something like that will help you in being consistent, because it's very clear from the name of the stat what it is for, rather than something that can be misinterpreted like "Agility" or "Intelligence" or "Super-Duper-Awesomeness" or whatever.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I don't know, Sparkle, I'd spend points on a stat called "Super-Duper-Awesomeness."

It does sound odd that M&M has stats for both Agility and Dexterity. Sure, there's a fine line of difference, but why do we need that, really? In general, I think anything that mechanically can be combined without losing flavor should be, for several reasons. Among those reasons, elegant design, simplicity's sake, and not forcing players to split points all over the place.

You could have skills like Run, Jump, Swim, and Climb. You could justify why they're all separate skills, sure. But if you make a single skill "Athletics," the game's gonna runner a little smoother. For one thing, players don't have to play mental guessing games like whether they're more likely to need Swim or Climb.

Granted, that example diverges a bit from the Agility / Dexterity question. But with that question, I have to ask, is there a benefit to separating Flexibility and Quickness? How often do you need Flexibility in such a circumstance that Quickness could not be stretched to cover it? If it's often, then that's fine.

[Xeviat]

Agility and Dexterity are separate partially because Dexterity was adding to too many abilities. Dexterity applies to its skills and to Ranged Attack, while Agility applies to Dodge Defense and its skills. It was a necessary change in the new edition of M&M, lest Dexterity be too potent of an ability.

I'm not here to debate that, though. I just want some thoughts on what terms such as "mental quickness" bring to mind.

[Superfluous Crow]

an apt name might be "wit"? or "guile"? I think I have seen wit used in a few systems.
On the other hand, I do not think Sparkle's idea is a bad one! A bit unorthodox, mayhaps, but that is sort of the objective for every new game system. Tabulating it using two or more spheres (physical, mental, social, magical etc.) and a number of attributes (Force, Agility, Resilience, etc) would give the system good structure and symmetry.

[Xeviat]

Which of the four mental scores, then would be suited for sensory type skills like "Perception" and "Insight"? My original draft had Awareness as "Mental Quickness", Wisdom as "Mental Resilience", Intelligence as "Mental Flexibility", and Charisma as "Mental Power". But the suggestion of "Wit", "Guile", or another's suggestion of "Creativity" is definitely something that could work.

Another thought is that I would like to have two stats contribute significantly to social situations.

[Kindling]

Another thought is that I would like to have two stats contribute significantly to social situations.

A simple way to do this would be to use your perception-type-stat (say, Wisdom in DnD) to "defend" in social situations - seeing through lies, etc. - and your persuasion-type-stat (Charisma in DnD) to "attack"

Another, more complicated, method might be to have certain NPCs particularly admire or look down on certain traits, so that if, for example, you were negotiating with a barbarian warlord, and you managed to show off your physical might during the negotiations somehow, he would have more respect for you, and listen more to what you had to say. Your persuasion-type-stat should still play a role, but this gives opportunities to bring your other stats into the process.

[Superfluous Crow]

Hmm, perception does present a flaw-of-sorts in the proposed ordered structure, but I think you are right it would be best qualified as mental quickness. After all, "spot", "listen" and their equivalents are less about the actual physical quality of your sensory organs than it is about piecing the sensory data together at a reasonable rate.
So yeah, Speed (Mental) = Wit = Perception.

[beejazz]

Which of the four mental scores, then would be suited for sensory type skills like "Perception" and "Insight"? My original draft had Awareness as "Mental Quickness", Wisdom as "Mental Resilience", Intelligence as "Mental Flexibility", and Charisma as "Mental Power". But the suggestion of "Wit", "Guile", or another's suggestion of "Creativity" is definitely something that could work.

Another thought is that I would like to have two stats contribute significantly to social situations.

It's important that stats be distinct. Perception and insight seem pretty similar. Also it's important to be broad instead of specific, which makes guile seem odd. Also, I have a hard time seeing perception or insight as resilience of any kind. Willpower might work somewhat better. A list of things I might use looking for mental stats:

Logic
Knowledge
Will
Perception/Insight
Creativity