Small Talking Animal Fantasy

[LoA]

I was inspired by this article.
[spoiler]http://rpgathenaeum.wordpress.com/2009/03/28/deconstructing-the-dd-game-the-tale-of-the-no-dandelion-eaters-campaign/[/spoiler]

I began thinking about fantasy that i loved that had no magic in it. I won't lie, this setting came directly from Redwall. I love those books. I feel no shame.

So I've been scratching my head for a setting for a long time, and I've been having this idea for a setting for a while. As i said before, I love Redwall, I love Mouse Guard, and I love Narnia, heck I also love Rango. So when I was talking to my friend about this, he said he'd love to play, so I'm like sweet! So i've been doodling out a map. Pretty basic. The land's name is Panorah, and up in the north lies a great coast that leads out into the great seas, and from there the rivers cut through the land. The natives (small talking animals such as Mice, Badgers and weasels) are currently being besieged by pirate hordes (other small talking animals) who easily took the northern coasts, and built a kingdom with a constantly shifting king because backstabbing is common practice. And in the southeast is a mighty mountain, and within it's base is a great kingdom, protected by a magnificent wall to keep out the wildli- I mean pirates. The Lord of of the mountain kingdom is an amazing king (yet to be named), and has kept the surrounding land free of hordes and barbarians, but peace is always a fleeting mistress.

The current King of Cope Castle the base of the Pirate hordes is currently ruled by a shrewd Possum (Yeah, I know...) named Captain Ergh, "Scourge of the Rivers". He sank three ships worth of fellow pirates who were under direct command of the last King, Lord Larg who was a spinely crotchety lizard. Then he pinned it on another Captain, who was nearly executed, but when Lord Larg raised his sword, Captain Ergh took his chance and tried to get him in the back. A battle ensued, but Lord Larg was overwhelmed because his forces were previously lost. It's not known what had happened to Lord Larg, They never found his body. However many pirates speculate (never openly in Cope Castle) that he escaped and is out awaiting his revenge. Captain Ergh, and his allies are certainly very paranoid. Even more paranoid than other Pirate kings....

Yeah, I'm not getting a Hugo award for this, but I still love this premise.

Basic Rules
Pathfinder and other 3.x stuff.
E6
No Magic
No Mystical Monsters
All creatures are animals.

So I don't want to burn myself out here, but do you think it would be wiser to re-skin the basic races into small talking animals or just build new races from scratch? I'm not concerned about size mathematics or anything. Since there are no humans, everything is from the animals perspective Medium becomes Gamely sized, and small becomes Pip sized, Etc. But i want a variety of animals in this setting, and I remember that someone once made Dwarves that evolved from badgers, and I love the badgers in the Redwall series so I don't want to tread on anyone's toes or anything.

[Steerpike]

There's actually a Mouse Guard RPG out there although I have no idea how it plays or how easily it might be adapted to different settings.

If you'd rather do Pathfinder, I'd probably just build new races from scratch if it were me (especially because I find building new races fun). There are so many racial traits and alternatives out there that it'd be pretty easy to come up with some good ones. There are already Ratfolk. I bet it'd be relatively easy to whip up some others. Maybe like:

[spoiler=Weasel]Weasel

Ability Score Racial Traits: Weasels are cunning and slippery, but are often considered untrustworthy. They gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Wisdom but -2 Charisma.
Type: Weasels are animals with the mammal subtype.
Size: Weasels are Gamely [Medium] sized animals.
Speed: Weasels have a base speed of 30 ft.
Languages: Weasels begin play speaking Common and Weaseltongue (also the language of Badgers, Polecats, Stoats, and Ferrets).

Feat and Skill Racial Traits

Slippery: Weasels are adept at getting out of tight spots and gain +2 on Climb, Escape Artist, Stealth, and Swim checks.

Offense Racial Traits

Bite: All Weasels have a Bite attack, treated as a natural weapon that deals 1d4 damage.
Attach: Weasels can automatically latch onto their targets when it successfully makes a Bite attack. The Weasel is considered grappling (and thus can continue to deal Bite damage each round), but the target is not. The target can attack or grapple the Weasel as normal, or break the attach with a successful grapple or Escape Artist check. The Weasel has a +4 Combat Maneuver bonus to maintain the attach.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision: As crepuscular animals Weasels have low-light vision allowing them to see twice as far as diurnal animals in conditions of low light.

Other Racial Traits

Compression: A Weasel can move through an area as small as one-quarter its space without squeezing or one-eighth its space when squeezing.[/spoiler]

Redwall were real favorites of mine as a kid, as well as the surprisingly adult Duncton Wood books ("mole fantasy") and Wind in the Willows... and Brambly Hedge (my god the visual world-building! Seriously, google image search Brambly Hedge...). I don't think there's anything inherently more juvenile about animal-based fantasy games than games about elves and stuff. Heck, a sort of Game of Thrones with woodland creatures sounds pretty badass.

EDIT: If you like I'd be happy to stat up some more of those, if you're not wild about fiddling with crunch. I'm not usually very enthused by crunchy bits myself but there are exceptions...

[HippopotamusDundee]

I think I'd vote that weasels and other middling-sized woodland animals be made Medium so that your badgers/foxes/etc. all become Large and the mice are the bottom of the scale at Small.

Also I'd remove the 'blood drain' ability (which has no basis in biology and is one of those old holdover chestnuts from early D&D) and replace it with that bizarre war dancing behavior that a lot of the weasel family perform in order to confuse and 'hypnotize' their prey.

Those minor race-design quibbles aside, I am 110% in favor of this idea - there's a lot of really great fiction that's been written about animal protagonists. Steerpike's already mentioned two of the classics, but Richard Adams' Watership Down is only the most well-known of a long string of single-species-focused novels (Hunters Moon for foxes, Frost Dancers for hares (both by Gerry Kilworth), A R Lloyd's Marshworld for weasels, Michael Tod's The Silver Tide for squirrels, etc.) that are also potentially inspiring.

And though it's slightly off-topic, the 'no magic' thing is not necessarily a requirement - Robin Jarvis wrote a number of dark fantasy novels about talking mice, bats, squirrels, etc back in the late 1990s that were quite excellent and surprisingly adult for children's books (rats skinning and eating mice, animated corn-effigies choking people to death).

[Steerpike]

I've taken your comments into account!

I can see the benefits and drawbacks of magical elements. If magic were included you could always to "nature" magic classes like Druid and Witch over Wizards and Clerics.

EDIT:

bizarre war dancing behavior that a lot of the weasel family perform in order to confuse and 'hypnotize' their prey.

This seems like it should be a Racial Feat that basically gives them the Bard's Fascinate ability.

[LoA]

I've taken your comments into account!

I can see the benefits and drawbacks of magical elements. If magic were included you could always to "nature" magic classes like Druid and Witch over Wizards and Clerics.

EDIT:

bizarre war dancing behavior that a lot of the weasel family perform in order to confuse and 'hypnotize' their prey.

This seems like it should be a Racial Feat that basically gives them the Bard's Fascinate ability.

Honestly the Magic restriction is there because I want to see what a game without magic would be like. Plus less of a hassle to deal with mechanics wise (no offense).
I'm not against alchemy as long as it stay's with the realms of actual science.

I want to make a setting where teamwork is what get's stuff done. Not builds, not spells, and not special equipment. Oh special swords help, but if there's no cooperation the bad guys are gonna win. I notice that with regular dnd there's an attitude of "well if I mess up the Cleric can heal my butt, so here goes!"

There's actually a Mouse Guard RPG out there although I have no idea how it plays or how easily it might be adapted to different settings.

If you'd rather do Pathfinder, I'd probably just build new races from scratch if it were me (especially because I find building new races fun). There are so many racial traits and alternatives out there that it'd be pretty easy to come up with some good ones. There are already Ratfolk. I bet it'd be relatively easy to whip up some others. Maybe like:

[spoiler=Weasel]Weasel

Ability Score Racial Traits: Weasels are cunning and slippery, but are often considered untrustworthy. They gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Wisdom but -2 Charisma.
Type: Weasels are animals with the mammal subtype.
Size: Weasels are Medium sized animals.
Speed: Weasels have a base speed of 20 ft.
Languages: Weasels begin play speaking Common and Mustelid (also the language of Badgers, Polecats, Stoats, and Ferrets).

Feat and Skill Racial Traits

Slippery: Weasels are adept at getting out of tight spots and gain +2 on Climb, Escape Artist, Stealth, and Swim checks.

Offense Racial Traits

Bite: All Weasels have a Bite attack, treated as a natural weapon that deals 1d4 damage.
Grab: Weasels have the Grab ability and thus can start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if they hit with their Bite attack on creatures of Medium size or smaller. They gain +4 to Combat Maneuver checks to start or maintain a grapple.
Blood Drain: A Weasel drains blood at the end of its turn if it grapples a foe, inflicting 1 Con damage.

Senses Racial Traits

Low-Light Vision: As crepuscular animals Weasels have low-light vision allowing them to see twice as far as diurnal animals in conditions of low light.

Other Racial Traits

Compression: A Weasel can move through an area as small as one-quarter its space without squeezing or one-eighth its space when squeezing.[/spoiler]

Thanks for the sampling! My friend wanted to play a weasel rogue so this is really cool! Thank you, Steerpike!

Redwall were real favorites of mine as a kid, as well as the surprisingly adult Duncton Wood books ("mole fantasy") and Wind in the Willows... and Brambly Hedge (my god the visual world-building! Seriously, google image search Brambly Hedge...). I don't think there's anything inherently more juvenile about animal-based fantasy games than games about elves and stuff....

And thank you for the eye happy that is Brambly Hedge. I take my philosophy on juvenile things from C.S. Lewis. You can't be an adult, till you put away your childish things, including the fear of enjoying childish things (paraphrasing)

EDIT: If you like I'd be happy to stat up some more of those, if you're not wild about fiddling with crunch. I'm not usually very enthused by crunchy bits myself but there are exceptions...

Eh, I can deal with crunch. It's about time I did some more of it anyway. But I appreciate the offer! Have there ever been any "Large" races that didn't need a Level adjustment?

I think I'd vote that weasels and other middling-sized woodland animals be made Medium so that your badgers/foxes/etc. all become Large and the mice are the bottom of the scale at Small.

Also I'd remove the 'blood drain' ability (which has no basis in biology and is one of those old holdover chestnuts from early D&D) and replace it with that bizarre war dancing behavior that a lot of the weasel family perform in order to confuse and 'hypnotize' their prey.

Those minor race-design quibbles aside, I am 110% in favor of this idea - there's a lot of really great fiction that's been written about animal protagonists. Steerpike's already mentioned two of the classics, but Richard Adams' Watership Down is only the most well-known of a long string of single-species-focused novels (Hunters Moon for foxes, Frost Dancers for hares (both by Gerry Kilworth), A R Lloyd's Marshworld for weasels, Michael Tod's The Silver Tide for squirrels, etc.) that are also potentially inspiring.

And though it's slightly off-topic, the 'no magic' thing is not necessarily a requirement - Robin Jarvis wrote a number of dark fantasy novels about talking mice, bats, squirrels, etc back in the late 1990s that were quite excellent and surprisingly adult for children's books (rats skinning and eating mice, animated corn-effigies choking people to death).

Thank you for the input and recommendations! I watched the Watership Down movie when i was 18 years old and I was shaken up for a week and even had a hard time sleeping. I can't imagine what that would do to a little kid....

Speaking of which..

Heck, a sort of Game of Thrones with woodland creatures sounds pretty badass.

Funny thing is this was the first idea that came to my mind. The original incarnation of my idea was that a house of otters ruled over the rivers and acted as guardians because there ancestors slew an anaconda-esque snake that had been terrorizing villages around the great river's. Then somewhere else in the land lied a formidable house who were richer than all of the kingdoms in the land because they were rabbits and had access to underground mines that made them wealthy. They tried to take the land in a great war, but the Otters stood in there way. They tried to kill the whole house, but one survived, and is now leading a counter strike, and the players would be animals in his service trying to help bring the rabbits to justice. Yep that's right. Otter Starks vs. Bunny Lannisters. Somehow though "See me Hop" doesn't inspire the same fear as "Hear me Roar"....

[Steerpike]

Have there ever been any "Large" races that didn't need a Level adjustment?

To my knowledge, no. That said, I don't think that means Large size should automatically confer an LA, so long as the stats weren't otherwise out of hand. Large comes with a bunch of penalties, and its chief advantages are basically larger weapons and reach.

Personally I'd interpret Medium very broadly. How I'd break it down would be something like:

Small: Mice, Rats, Shrews, Squirrels, Moles, Voles, Hedgehogs, Rabbits

Medium: Weasels, Foxes, Stoats, Ferrets, Skunks, Wolverines, Cats, Badgers, Raccoons

Large: Wolves, Black Bears, Deer, pretty much anything over 100 lbs

[LoA]

Have there ever been any "Large" races that didn't need a Level adjustment?

To my knowledge, no. That said, I don't think that means Large size should automatically confer an LA, so long as the stats weren't otherwise out of hand. Large comes with a bunch of penalties, and its chief advantages are basically larger weapons and reach.

Personally I'd interpret Medium very broadly. How I'd break it down would be something like:

Small: Mice, Rats, Shrews, Squirrels, Moles, Voles, Hedgehogs, Rabbits

Medium: Weasels, Foxes, Stoats, Ferrets, Skunks, Wolverines, Cats, Badgers, Raccoons

Large: Wolves, Black Bears, Deer, pretty much anything over 100 lbs

Treating Medium broadly is what i was thinking.

[Steerpike]

Are you going to include birds? Those could be trickier to figure out rules-wise, although according to the Creating New Races guidelines it's do-able.

EDIT: BTW for classes, keep in mind that the Ranger is viable even in a no-magic world so long as you go with the Trapper archetype, which replaces spells with traps. I think that would mean there are basically 4 character choices (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue) if you stick to Base Classes.

[LoA]

Are you going to include birds? Those could be trickier to figure out rules-wise, although according to the Creating New Races guidelines it's do-able.

EDIT: BTW for classes, keep in mind that the Ranger is viable even in a no-magic world so long as you go with the Trapper archetype, which replaces spells with traps. I think that would mean there are basically 4 character choices (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue) if you stick to Base Classes.

I tried to make an owl race for my sister. She loves owls. But it's not off the table yet.
So far I've worked out Mice stats, and Frogs.

Mice
[spoiler]Mice
Physical Description: Mice are small rodent's and one of the most common people in Panorah. They tend to be very clever and agile creatures, and they are very swift.
Standard Racial Traits
•   Ability Score Racial Traits: Mice gain -4 Str, +2 Dex, and +2 Int.
•   Type: Mice are humanoids with the mammal subtype.
•   Size: Mice are Small creatures and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
•   Speed: Mice have a base speed of 30 feet.
Movement Racial Traits
•   Swift as Shadows: Mice reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving at full speed by 5, and reduce the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10.
•   Fleet-Footed: Mice receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks.
Senses Racial Traits
•   Darkvision: Mice can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Other Racial Traits
•   Prehensile Tail: Mice have a long, flexible tail that can be used to carry objects. They cannot wield weapons with their tails, but they can retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action.[/spoiler]

Frogs
[spoiler]Frogs
Standard Racial Traits
•   Ability Score Racial Traits: Frogs gain +2 Dex, -2 Con, and +2 Wis.
•   Type: Frogs are humanoids.
•   Size: Frogs are Small creatures and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a -1 penalty to their CMB and CMD, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
•   Speed: Frogs have a base speed of 30 feet.They also have a climb speed of 30 feet, which also grants them a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks.They also have a swim speed of 30 feet, which also grants them a +8 racial bonus on Swim checks.
•   Languages: Frogs begin play speaking Common.
Movement Racial Traits
•   Jumper: Frogs are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Offense Racial Traits
•   Sticky Tongue: Frogs can make melee attacks with their long, sticky tongues. This is a secondary attack. A creature hit by this attack cannot move more than 10 feet away from the frog and takes a -2 penalty to AC as long as the tongue is attached (this penalty does not stack if multiple tongues are attached). The tongue can be removed by the target or an adjacent ally by making an opposed Strength check against the frog as a standard action or by dealing 2 points of damage to the tongue (AC 11, damage does not reduce the frog's hit points). A frog cannot move more than 10 feet away from a creature stuck to her tongue, but she can release her tongue from the target as a free action. A frog can only have one creature attached to her tongue at a time.
Other Racial Traits
•   Amphibious: Frogs are amphibious and can breathe both air and water.[/spoiler]

Are these balanced?

[Steerpike]

I'd say they're pretty balanced compared to one another and existing Pathfinder races. The frog having both a Climb and a Swim speed is quite strong. I might reduce these alternate speeds to 20 ft. (much like the Grippli) or make them Water Dependent (like Gillmen).

I'm not sure mice need -4 Strength. Halflings and Gnomes only have -2 and their various traits seem pretty much on par with a mouse's. In a game where casters are possible I'd say this is less of a problem, but with mostly warrior classes that penalty is going to hurt a lot. The great majority of ranged weapons still apply a Strength penalty, so a mouse player pretty much has to be a crossbow-wielder to be effective. The swordsmouse is a strong archetype in the genre (Martin, Reepicheep, Saxon), and I think the crunch here would really penalize players who wanted to play that kind of character.

[HippopotamusDundee]

I'd say they're pretty balanced compared to one another and existing Pathfinder races. The frog having both a Climb and a Swim speed is quite strong. I might reduce these alternate speeds to 20 ft. (much like the Grippli) or make them Water Dependent (like Gillmen).

Alternatively, limit frogs to a swim speed only and give the climb speed to their land-based cousins the frogs (the distinction is informal rather than taxonomic but is usually recreated in this genre).

I'm not sure mice need -4 Strength. Halflings and Gnomes only have -2 and their various traits seem pretty much on par with a mouse's. In a game where casters are possible I'd say this is less of a problem, but with mostly warrior classes that penalty is going to hurt a lot. The great majority of ranged weapons still apply a Strength penalty, so a mouse player pretty much has to be a crossbow-wielder to be effective. The swordsmouse is a strong archetype in the genre (Martin, Reepicheep, Saxon), and I think the crunch here would really penalize players who wanted to play that kind of character.

I'm definitely in agreement with Steerpike here: -2 Strength is more than enough, and you can always give them a reversed equivalent of the 'Powerful Build' trait (count as Tiny for grapples, overruns, etc) if you think there's a need to push the 'weak' angle.

[LoA]

Okay I nerfed them. I gave frogs a +2 to climb checks instead of Climber, and gave mice -2 strength instead of 4.

Also Badgers

[spoiler]Badgers
Standard Racial Traits
•   Ability Score Racial Traits: Badgers gain +2 Str, -2 Dex, and +2 Wis.
•   Type: Badgers are humanoids.
•   Size: Badgers are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•   Speed: Badgers have a base speed of 30 feet.
•   Languages: Badgers begin play speaking Common.
Defense Racial Traits
•   Stability: Badgers receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.
•   Hardy: Badgers have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Offense Racial Traits
•   Natural Weapons: Badgers have a bite primary natural attack that deals 1d3 damage.
•   Ferocity: If the hit points of a badger fall below 0 but she is not yet dead, she can continue to fight. If she does, she is staggered, and loses 1 hit point each round. She still dies when her hit points reach a negative amount equal to her Constitution score.[/spoiler]

I'm not gonna lie. this one probably has issues.

[Steerpike]

Alternatively, limit frogs to a swim speed only and give the climb speed to their land-based cousins the frogs (the distinction is informal rather than taxonomic but is usually recreated in this genre).

You mean Toads for the drier/terrestrial ones, right?

I'm not gonna lie. this one probably has issues.

Badgers don't seem too bad to me. Hardy is powerful, but only a bit better than something like Halfling's Luck, and since most Badgers are going to be weapon-users the Bite isn't a big deal (it seems to me that a ton of races are going to have natural weapons).

The only ability I think is a bit powerful is Ferocity. You might consider paring it down to the Half-Orc version: "Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying." Orcs have full Ferocity, but it's somewhat balanced by their Light Sensitivity.

I also feel like they should have a (low) Burrow speed, but you might want to keep that special to moles (at the very least moles should have a better Burrow speed).

[LD]

>>Ferocity: If the hit points of a badger fall below 0 but she is not yet dead, she can continue to fight. If she does, she is staggered, and loses 1 hit point each round. She still dies when her hit points reach a negative amount equal to her Constitution score.

So no chance to stabilize when Ferocity is activated?

[LoA]

I had a feeling the badgers were going to need work. I'll keep at it.

Weasels
[spoiler]Weasels
Standard Racial Traits
•   Ability Score Racial Traits: Weasels gain +2 Dex, +2 Wis, and -2 Cha.
•   Type: Weasels are humanoids.
•   Size: Weasels are Medium creatures and thus receive no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•   Speed: Weasels have a base speed of 30 feet.
•   Languages: Weasels begin play speaking Common.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
•   Skill Bonus: Weasels have a +2 racial bonus on Escape Artist, Perception, and Sleight of Hand checks.
Movement Racial Traits
•   Swift as Shadows: Weasels reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving at full speed by 5, and reduce the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10.
•   Terrain Stride: Weasels can move through natural difficult terrain at their normal speed while in coniferous and deciduous forests. Magically altered terrain affects them normally.
Offense Racial Traits
•   Natural Weapons: Weasels have a bite primary natural attack that deals 1d3 damage.[/spoiler]