The Taxonomy of the Dragon

[Xeviat]

As I'm working on the races of my setting, I've been thinking a lot about evolution lately. Long story short, I started to ponder where the Dragon could fit into our modern conception of taxonomy. When I say "Dragon", I'm refering to a winged reptiles of "large" size (relatively large, as in "not small"), that may or may not have the capacity to breath fire/acid/something.

Currently, it seems almost definate that, if such a creature were to have evolved, it would be in the group of Archosaur reptiles, which includes crocodiles, pterosaurs, and dinosaurs (including birds). Pterosaurs are a reasonable solution, since they already have wings, but the coelurosaurs (a group of theropod dinosaurs including tyranosaurs and "raptors", which are now assumed to all be feathered, possibly warmblooded, and most likely includes birds) are also a possible starting point.

So, what ideas do you all have for half the namesake of the game we play? I'm looking to discuss the psudoscientific notion of a dragon, not the mystical and supernatural notion that D&D uses.

[Wensleydale]

If you're going to go down that route, they need -MUCH- bigger wings. At the moment, most of their wings wouldn't even lift an unarmoured version, let alone them with their massively thick scales.

More later.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Strictly speaking, wyverns would fit your conception a little better.  On earth, vetebrates do not have six limbs.  Dragons do (four legs, two wings).  Remember something like a pterodactl has wings merged within (or in place of, depending on your perspective) arms.

It's an interesting idea.  Where do you see long (Chinese) dragons fitting in?

[Stargate525]

If you can, I suggest picking up a copy of dragon's world from a discovery channel store. It's an entire documentary on how a dragon could possibly work.

[DeeL]

In point of absolute fact, the discovery channel was resurrecting an idea for a book published way back in the '80s entitled Flight of Dragons.  (I don't remember the name of the author.)  The idea propounded was that dragons were essentially living derigibles, with wings formed from the extended struts of their ribs.  They weren't really very strong, but they could breathe fire and their sheer size made them terrifying.  Further, the sheer volume of hydrogen necessitated a strongly acidic biology, which is why there are few fossil or other remains to be found.  

It was actually plausible, in a ludicrous way.

[Xathan]

The way I've always viewed it, and the way I'm working it in my settings that are more biologically oriented, is that dragons belong to the phylum Chordata, subphylum  Vertebrata, class Dracoformia, a class of hexapedal creatures that share many features with Sauropsida. Dracoformes (members of Dracoformia) display some traits besides the six limbs that distinguish them for Sauropsida. Dracoformes are endothermic (with the exception of the Draco Vulgaris Desidiosus). Dracoformes are not universally scaled: two orders of dracoformes are feathered, like birds, and one order's members are covered in bristles which resemble hair. Only 2/3's of known Dracoformes lay eggs: the rest give live birth. Also, all dracoformes posses a "fire gland", which often contains a volatile chemical the dragon can "breathe" in times of distress, as part of a mating display, or as part of hunting. (in many dracoformes, the "fire gland" is vestigial and no longer functions. The exact nature of the chemical varies between the various dracoformes.) The final notable difference between dracoformes and reptiles is that dracoformes are extremely social creatures, taking an active role in raising the young and interacting with other members more so than most reptiles.

[Xeviat]

I actually work at The Discovery Channel Store, and I own the DVD you're refering to. If six limbs is really that big of an issue, I can have "dragons" have 4. I didn't intent to touch Lungs with this, just the standard european dragon (If I use this at all, it will be for the Drakes of my setting Sylphenhest. The Drakes will be animals, and will have no relation to the Dragons of Terran (who are children of gods, and exist as Serpents [chromatics] and Wyrms [metallics]).

I came up with two directions for their evolution:[list=1]

• Dragons evolved from early Theropod stock during the early Jurrasic, before true Dromeosaurs, and later birds, evolved. Rather than growing feathers for flight, they grew elongated fingers. They possess many classically bird adaptations, such as thin bones, and their use of hydrogen for fire improves their boyancy.
• Dragons evolved from pterosaurs who had, at first, adapted to terrestrial life, and then returned to the air. Some time during their divergence from pterosaurs, they developed weapon glands in their mouths (probably adapted saliva glands) that secrete a binary agent that, when mixed, produces an incredibly hot, incredibly cold, or incredibly acidic liquid that is sprayed out.
• Dragons are not reptiles, and are not even related to the first reptiles. Dragons diverged from the rest of animals from amphibian stock. While they developed many of the same adaptations as reptiles, they never left the water entirely. Dragon "larva" look like large carnivorous fish. These dragons are six limbed (explained since amphibians are prone to mutations), and they don't develop their wings until their later stages of metamorphosis. They possess chemical weaponry, not true fire.

I'm growing fond of the amphibian rout, as it is strange and different.

[Tybalt]

You could also go the route of Pern--have them in fact bioengineered creatures by some earlier civilization. In that kind of case the breath weapon must actually be induced. Moreover they are an enlarged type of a preexisting creature.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Well, if you want to go really scientific, you could say that something in the Dragon's body produces a hydrogen gas, possibly as a by-product of various chemical contents of their stomach.  Thus, you have them filled with a lighter-than-air gas (helping with the flying aspect, since they really are too massive to lift off the ground with wings alone), as well as the fire-breathing aspect (seeing as hydrogen is extremely flammable).  I know this doesn't really help with the taxonomy part of your question, but it may be worth looking into as a start for how reptiles could fly.

[Stargate525]

I actually work at The Discovery Channel Store, and I own the DVD you're refering to.

I envy you. That job must rock.

Well, if you want to go really scientific, you could say that something in the Dragon's body produces a hydrogen gas, possibly as a by-product of various chemical contents of their stomach.  Thus, you have them filled with a lighter-than-air gas (helping with the flying aspect, since they really are too massive to lift off the ground with wings alone), as well as the fire-breathing aspect (seeing as hydrogen is extremely flammable).  I know this doesn't really help with the taxonomy part of your question, but it may be worth looking into as a start for how reptiles could fly.

Then you have the problem of a dragon's potential to go BOOM...

personally, I would make them the bastard child between reptiles and amphibians.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Yeah, but they have all that shiny armor, which protects them from flaming arrows, flaming spheres, and flaming nuclear explosions.  Maybe.

[Stargate525]

Yeah, but they have all that shiny armor, which protects them from flaming arrows, flaming spheres, and flaming nuclear explosions.  Maybe.

darn it, bow I want to see a gargantuan dragon go up like the hindenburg...

[Xeviat]

"Yay, it's raining meat!!! And it's cooked!!!"

The more I think on it, the more I like the amphibian idea. Each of their life age-categories could get more ornate and more horrible.

Ish, as I said earlier, I know of the hydrogen idea, but I'm not keen on it (it's been done, I guess is what I'm saying). Going chemical (I know fire is a chemical reaction), I can get three or maybe even four different breath weapons easily: poison, acid, scalding, and cold. They'd have started off producing poisons, in venom sacks in the throat, that they could spray at prey or preditors. Over time, the chemicals inside could have changed to produce intense heat when mixed, or potent acid, or even an endothermicly cold reaction.

Also, they wouldn't be scaly anymore, they'd be leathery. Their spines would be true spines, bony protrusions, which made my artist friend giddy with horrific glee. These dragons are being used in my horror setting, which is now shaping up to having no mammalian life (the standard people are going to be "dinosauroids", a humanoid evolved from dromeosaurs).