I'm stuck x_x

[Johnny Wraith]

I'm trying to write and stat every new race and class for my Setting in order to be able to play in it with my group. So far everything had been running smoothly, until now...

Wizards in my setting are far and few in between, and I restricted their spell lists in order to fit the idea I have for them. Since they don't have access to divination spells (No class does, actually), I decided to create a new class that would incorporate the handful of spells I like from that school (Scrying and foresight, really) but as special abilities. I named them Seers, and my idea is for them to fit the archetype of Oracles, Sages and Gypsies. I've come up with a few abilities for them... since I want them to be these sort of exalted beings... Like for instance, alter the weather slightly, being able to know the past or future, some kind of fortune-telling... And while all of those are great for the roleplaying aspect, or the -feel- of the class... I just can't imagine how a player would choose to use one since I can't figure out what they could do during combat... So yeah, they are these intelligent and wise dudes that can see into the future, but during a fight what are they going to do?

I want to avoid giving them spellcasting if I can because in my setting I make a very big distinction between black and white magic (Evocation/Destruction as opposed to Healing/Blessing), and these guys are supposed to be in between (And scrying seems to fit there), but ultimately it seems I'm gonna have to go with that. I was wondering if you have any ideas to help me here, especially in the -give them something to do in combat- area. Anything you can give me is much appreciated :)

[Túrin]

To me, they sound like the oracles in the ancient Greek world. Someone the heroes would seek out (preferably requiring a long and adventurous journey) rather than heroes themselves. Why would you want your players to have any reason to play such a class? Why would you allow them even if they wanted to? This looks like an NPC-class if ever there was one. To me, that is. ;)

Túrin

[Numinous]

I agree with Túrin on this one.  Make the Seer an NPC class, and you solve the combat issue, as wel as anmy balance issues that may occur due to the ability to divine knowledge.  This also gives you absolute control over what divination abilities you want to be used in the game.

Also, why would you want characters of this class to be PC's?  Any particular logic we're missing here?

[Johnny Wraith]

No, I guess you are both right. After reading what you both said, yes... it seems like they fit perfectly as an NPC class... I guess I had just never seen it that way. Odd... In any case, thank you.

There's still some potential for this class if we add the melee part to them, though... Let's see what everyone else says.

[the_taken]

The ability to predict the path your enemies will take means you know exactly where to set up a trap, and when to spring it.

Here's an idea. Instead of only having the ability to predict the far future, also give them the ability to predict what's about to happen in 3 seconds.
Design them for high AC, high reflex and high BAB. They can predict your next move, so it's only natural that they'll take advantage of this.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I was going to say make it an NPC class, but I see someone beat me to it.  An oracle isn't really something you see going on adventures anyway - the adventure is seeing the oracle.

[Poseptune]

I see it not as a NPC class, but as a rare template that can be added to base intelligent humanoids (or possibly any creature really.)

When the template is applied a small sampling of spells are selected for spell like abilities (some per day, some at will). The level is based on the HD of the base creature kinda like vampire spawns and vampires. This allows you to have a couple of different specialty "Seers".

For example a Seer:Detector, Spell like abilities All the detects, Discern Lies, and Discern Location.

You could use a certain number to limit the spells too, like "You are able to choose spells from the divination school as spell like abilities, these spells can not exceed a total of 9 when adding their spell level. Choosing a spell more than once allows you to use it that many times per day. Choosing a spell 5 times allows you to use it at will." These numbers are chosen at random just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.



As for battle:

These are the sage advisor of a village or the lone mystic in the mountains. I don't see them doing much in the way of combat, but if you go with a template then they can have whatever class they were before they were awakened.

[Stargate525]

The ability to predict the path your enemies will take means you know exactly where to set up a trap, and when to spring it.

Here's an idea. Instead of only having the ability to predict the far future, also give them the ability to predict what's about to happen in 3 seconds.
Design them for high AC, high reflex and high BAB. They can predict your next move, so it's only natural that they'll take advantage of this.

I'm with her on this; This class would seem made for a battlefield control expert, being able to detect weak points in the enemy's defenses, shore up their own, predict attacks, etc. Kinda how I imagined Bastila's Battle Meditation worked in KOTOR...

[the_taken]

I'm feeling bold. Let's make a new base class for your low magic game.

We have a concept. A warrior type with the ability to magicaly predict it's opponant's next move.

Cool things: Solid in-your face combat abilites; difficult to dammage, difficult to hit, decent dammage output without buffs.
Neat things: Ability to detect anything. Undead? Magical gems? Pure Evil? Secret doors? Your laundry? You name it, he finds it.
A decent and affordable skil set.
Ability to predict events. Many spells already do this. Augury for example. But this is just for story effects.
The down side: Low HP and Fortitude. Very limited stamina. Oh so few spell slots. Offencive magic is limited to a few weak buffs. Multicalssing is very counterproductive.


So, open those books and search for spells. I have an idea.

[Johnny Wraith]

After reading what you all had to say... I can only say that I'm even more confused on what to do with this... The original idea was to make it a base class to fit some of the things that I took from other classes (Divination, more than anything else), so that would make them special right from the start. Some people said NPC class, and that would work... I can see them as just Oracles who sit there and wait for PCs to get to them, and that's perfectly fine... Shortly after, I thought about a template, which is what Poseidon actually suggested. A template also works, like a sort of 'enlightment' or something that lets them see things that other people can't. But here comes the_taken talking about how it could work as a PC class, lol... and I can say that well, perhaps it does have potential for that...

My comments on what you said:

Cool things - I agree with all of them, I suppose that the best way to make this class work in combat is to make them melee oriented. I was battling in my head with this originally, just as much as I battled between giving them spells or not. But yes, I agree with all the Cool things.

Neat Things - Able to detect anything, big No No. I despise detection above all else, lol... I feel it makes the game too... 'easy'. In my game, only one class has detect undead, and one detect magic (And neither is a wizard/cleric/druid), so they're special that way.
Decent and affordable skill set, yes.
Ability to predict events, yes.

The down side - Low HP and Fortitude, you hit the spot there. Few to no spell slots is what I'm going for, and yes, offensive magic should just be some buffs, no evocation-like spells.

Overall, I think we're on the same page. I think the most important thing to balance here is his attack capabilities... Because think about it, if you wanted to make this simple, what does predicting your opponent's next move translate to when the Seer attacks? Attack Bonus++, which sounds good, but let's be careful not to abuse it, since it would make it so fighters and barbarians aren't that good anymore when they are supposed to be the best in that area. I'm gonna do some research on the books I have for feats/spells/abilities that would fit this guy... But please, post whatever ideas you may have already.

[Poseptune]

I still say it would make a better template. :P

Reasons:
Not all "Seers" are going to be combat oriented.
Making it a template or something similar can give the player the option of being a fighting "Seer" or passive advisor.
It will be hard to give attack bonuses and/or AC bonses when Foresight (a 9th level spell) only gives +2 to AC and Reflex Saves

If you do go with a class, I suggest that it have a feature similar to the rangers combat style. The player can select different courses based on what they want for their character.

Something like:
Seer's Path (Stage 1):
   Path of Battle: The Seer gets +1 to attack bonus and...
   Path of Foresight: The Seer is able to use Augury and Guidance a combonation of 3 times per day
   Path of Communication: Seer is able to use Tongues, and Speak with Animals a number of times per day equal to..
   Path of Clear Vision: Seer is able to use See Inivisible and Arcane Sight a number of times equal to..

Seer's Path (Stage 2):
   Path of Battle: The Seer gets +2 to attack bonus, True Strike 1/day and...
   Path of Foresight: The Seer is able to use Scrying or Clairvoyance ...
   Path of Communication: Seer is able to use Commune with nature and Speak with Plants a number of times per day equal to..
   Path of Clear Vision: Seer is able to use Greater Arcane Sight and/or True Seeing a number of times equal to..

Seer's Path (Stage 3):
   Path of Battle: The Seer gets +3 to attack bonus, True Strike 2/day and...
   Path of Foresight: The Seer is able to use Foresight, and/or Moment of Prescience ...
   Path of Communication: Seer is able to use Contact other Planes, and/or Telepathic Bond a number of times per day equal to..
   Path of Clear Vision: Seer is able to use Lengend Lore or Vision a number of times equal to..


These are just quick examples. They are nowhere near balanced or well thought out, just meant to illustrate my suggestion.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I kind of agree with the sea god.  Making it a template also makes it feel like something special that you're born with (but might not know it).  You know, you develop the gift of the oracle.  It's a big deal to a lot of people, of course.

On the other hand, I still don't see an oracle going to adventuring.  They are just too valuable to do anything but sit in temples, answer questions, and make vague prophecies.

If you want a presciet combat class, maybe design something separate?  Or perhaps, with the template, some embrace the role of oracle (thus fitting the mold), those that don't might stay adventurers, trying to deny their nature, all the while gaining some benefits, but having people after them to come work for them as an oracle.

[the_taken]

I don't agree with the idea of a template. Does the ability to predict the future realy mean you're a different type of creature? Is the ability to predict the future realy worth a level adjustment? For the most part, it's a story effect.

There's realy no need to make any weird stats for an NPC that has the ability to predict the future. Just make him an expert and arbitrarily decide he can use a bunch of divinations for free, it's no big deal. Detect Thoughts doesn't affect their ability to fight, so it's not important. The fact the he charges you 500gp for a sesion of Scrying is all that matters. Weather he can scry for somebody else right after isn't. Story effects.
The rambling blindfolded man can just as easily be a commoner4 or rogue3 or cleric76. What ever. You only need stats NPCs you plan to be involved in fighting.

It's class time. Let's start with simple items.

Alignment: The ability to predict the future has nothing to do with your alignment.
Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)
Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Apraise (INT), Bluff (CHA), Craft (INT), Concentration (CON), Decipher Script (INT), Diplomacy (CHA), Disguise (CHA), Escape Artist (DEX), Forgery (INT), Gather Information (CHA), Handle Animal (CHA), Intimidate (CHA), Knowledge (INT), Listen (WIS), Sense Motive (WIS), Search (INT), Spellcraft (INT), Spot (WIS), Survival (WIS)
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Average (3/4), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

[the_taken]

Let's give him up to 6th level spells, bard's spell slot progresion.

Possible spell list. Form CORE:
Lvl 0
Detect Scrying, Guidance, Know Direction, Message

Lvl 1
Alarm, Augury, Expeditious Retreat, Legend Lore, True Strike

Lvl 2
Comprehend Languages, Foresight, Helping Hand, Locate Object, Misdirection, Pass without Trace, Status, Whispering Wind, Gust of Wind

Lvl 3
Arcane Eye, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Detect Thoughts, Divination, Glibness, Locate Creature, Scrying, Stone Tell

Lvl 4
Call Lightning, Contact Other Plane, Dream, False Vision, Moment of Prescience, Project Image, Screen, Sending, Telepathic Bond

Lvl 5
Control Weather, Find the Path, Mind Blank, Modify Memory, Prying Eyes, Greater Scrying

Lvl 6
Analyze Dweomer, Call Lightning Storm, Discern Location

Other spells: Arcane Sight, Contingency, Deathwatch, See Invisibility, True Seeing?

From PHB2
Lvl 1
Black Karma Curse

Lvl 2
Mystic Aegis

From Heroes of Battle
Lvl 4
Greater Status

From Heroes of Horror
Lvl 4
Dream Sight

From Lords of Madness
Lvl 5
Probe Thougths

Lvl 6
Brain Spider

From Frostburn
Lvl 2
Control Temperature

Lvl5
Blizzard

From Stormwrack
Lvl 1
Tojanida Sight

Lvl 3
Conrol Currents, Favorable Wind

Lvl 5
Mudslide

From Complete Arcane
Lvl 1
Accuracy, Anticipate Teleportation, Protection From Charm

Lvl 2
Aiming at the Target

Lvl 3
Unluck

Lvl 4
Greater Anticipate Teleportation, Finding the Center, Summoning Wind

Lvl 5
Spirit Self

Lvl 6
Programmed Amnesia

From Complete Divine
Lvl 0
Omen of Peril

Lvl 2
Chain of Eyes, Telepathic Bond, Weather Eye

Lvl 4
Dream Sight

Lvl 5
Probe Thoughts

Lvl 6
Binding Winds, Brain Spider

From Complete Mage
Lvl 0
True Casting, Vigilant Slumber

Lvl 1
Allied Footsteps, Near Horizon

Lvl 3
Mysterious Redirection

From Complete Adventurer
Lvl 0
Accelerated Movement

Lvl 1
Critical Strike, Insightful Feint, Instant Search

Lvl 2
Bladeweave, Distract Assailant, Divine Insight, Master's Touch, Tactical Precision

Lvl 3
Blade Storm, Speechlink

From Races of Destiny
Lvl 0
Scholar's Touch, Omen of Peril

Lvl 3
Warp Destiny

Lvl 6
Choose Destiny

From Races of Stone
Lvl 3
Eye of Stone

From the Draconomicon
Lvl 0
Cheat

Lvl 2
Find the Gap

[Johnny Wraith]

6 level progession.. Yeah, that seems like the best choice if I wanted to avoid full spellcasting. The list seems good. Special abilities should prove a bit harder though, I think. Sometimes I wish I could just come up with the fluff and forget about the krunch, lol.. I think they should gain some sort of speed bonus to help them with their low HP count.