Dead Thread - Moved

[Hibou]

I'm also fascinated with the emotional effects of specific colors as much as I am with specific keys in music.

Specific keys? Please explain. I would understand if you had said specific harmonies and/or modalities, but surely a chord pattern or melody in one key is much the same as if it were transposed into another key, except for obviously being higher or lower in pitch.

Sorry I didn't answer sooner, posted all of this stuff sunday night and then got called in to start my chemo at 6 in the morning on monday...

I came across  this some time ago, which kind of helped me evolve with my musical ability as I began to agree with it. Different keys tend to have different feelings, and not just between majors and minors. I find it really easy to notice when I'm playing guitar without a capo in standard tuning, playing in the key of G, for example, and then throw a capo on the 3rd fret and start playing effectively in Bb Major. There's a different feel to it. Schubart seems to have known what was up. :)

[Hibou]

More posted on Vail, even more to come (much, much more). I'll be getting back to Haveneast and The Nightmare with some new material very soon, and will also be doing another one of the dreamworlds - this one being a place of science, very different forms of magic, large numbers of dwarves, and a likely color of gold.

[Hibou]

Updated the first post with Haveneast's themes.

[Hibou]

Forms of magic in Haveneast added - they can be found  here. Would like some feedback on them to see if I'm missing anything and generally what people think. Also working on adding in much, much more to previous posts, and am still editing some stuff, so certain posts may have a lot of verbose content.

[LordVreeg]

Forms of magic in Haveneast added - they can be found  here. Would like some feedback on them to see if I'm missing anything and generally what people think. Also working on adding in much, much more to previous posts, and am still editing some stuff, so certain posts may have a lot of verbose content.

Ok.  I'll spend some time, in between getting work done in the office, replying to this as it is near and dear.  I think the magic system, if not 'the' heart of a setting, is one of the hearts of what makes or breaks our works.  It is, after all, the magic that makes the worlds work in a manner different than our own.

Or at least different from my day to day petty pace, you may be more emlightened than I.

The point being, or one point being, that if the magic system backstory and actual practice is set up to match the world and to promote the physics of the setting (as magic is, to some extent, the measure of how physics of the world differ from our own), the setting is in a much better footing to resonate with the players.
The opposite is seen too often.  Someone has a great idea for a setting, then just drops in some standardized, generic spell casting system written for easy playability, and *WHAM*, so much for the setting.

So I enjoyed reading the blurbs and enjoyed the variety in what you are doing.  The little backstories in each also went a long way towards my grasp of how you want each to feel.  You have a talent for the 'expository diclaimer', use it wisely.

Big picture, I enjoy the 'All roads lead to Roma' approach (probably because I use it myself  ;) ), in that people have similar goals, but a different route may be used to reach it.  Divination by Necromancy or Demonolgy will get you the same information, but the route taken (or the formulae used) may be completely different.

Now, let me ask you something else...can these formats be conflated?  Can someone be adept in more than one and cast spells using pieces of both?

So far, I like it.  I'd like a better understanding one what powers the magics, as well as how the crunch is going to play out and the gameplay mechanics, but as with much of your stuff, you have given your unique feel to a subject we talk about all day long on this site, and that is a magic in and of itself.

(And will 2.0 have spellcheck?  Typing with a broekn finger and a sprained thumb is making me worse than normal...)

[Ishmayl-Retired]

What system are you going to use for Rune Magic?  I've had trouble finding a good one for my game (not really a fan of Arcana Evolved's system), though I have read one over at WotC that I like.

[Hibou]

[blockquote=LordVreeg]Ok. I'll spend some time, in between getting work done in the office, replying to this as it is near and dear. I think the magic system, if not 'the' heart of a setting, is one of the hearts of what makes or breaks our works. It is, after all, the magic that makes the worlds work in a manner different than our own.

Or at least different from my day to day petty pace, you may be more emlightened than I.

The point being, or one point being, that if the magic system backstory and actual practice is set up to match the world and to promote the physics of the setting (as magic is, to some extent, the measure of how physics of the world differ from our own), the setting is in a much better footing to resonate with the players.
The opposite is seen too often. Someone has a great idea for a setting, then just drops in some standardized, generic spell casting system written for easy playability, and *WHAM*, so much for the setting.

So I enjoyed reading the blurbs and enjoyed the variety in what you are doing. The little backstories in each also went a long way towards my grasp of how you want each to feel. You have a talent for the 'expository diclaimer', use it wisely.

Big picture, I enjoy the 'All roads lead to Roma' approach (probably because I use it myself ), in that people have similar goals, but a different route may be used to reach it. Divination by Necromancy or Demonology will get you the same information, but the route taken (or the formulae used) may be completely different.

Now, let me ask you something else...can these formats be conflated? Can someone be adept in more than one and cast spells using pieces of both?

So far, I like it. I'd like a better understanding one what powers the magics, as well as how the crunch is going to play out and the gameplay mechanics, but as with much of your stuff, you have given your unique feel to a subject we talk about all day long on this site, and that is a magic in and of itself.

(And will 2.0 have spellcheck? Typing with a brokenn finger and a sprained thumb is making me worse than normal...)[/blockquote]

Thank you for your comments. I spent much time considering these and deciding what kinds of magic would go into what forms, and this is still subject to some change, but the similarities between the magic is something I had hoped would work well :D. As for you questions - there can indeed be combinations between them, and wielders of magic can certainly use more than one form; one of the largest magic-wielding cults in Haveneast, the Order of Seven, decorates its members in colored robes according to what kind they wield - and the most powerful and well-studied, who can use at least three forms wear the sacred color purple. Magic between the forms can be combined and two forms usually will compliment each other in some way, though I'm still working out the mechanics on this (see below).

We can certainly hope 2.0 will have spellcheck :), but luckily I already have it from... somewhere. Might be an add-on from Wordperfect.

[blockquote=Ishmayl]What system are you going to use for Rune Magic? I've had trouble finding a good one for my game (not really a fan of Arcana Evolved's system), though I have read one over at WotC that I like.[/blockquote]

This really goes back to my old project, Witchcraft d20. As I write the fluff for different things in my setting I'm considering how they function for three different systems: New World of Darkness, D&D 3.5/d20, and guessing at how they'll work in 4th Edition D&D. I have yet to really ever read any rune magic systems at all, and am still working out the basic mechanics for each. In 3.5, the forms primarily function as modified schools with many more options, putting less focus on specific effects and more focus on themes. The "lesser" forms such as Astrology, Numerology, and Ritual magic all would work as combinations of skills and feats, and even some of the greater forms can be accessed using feat trees.

Rune magic, if forced to pull spells out of the Player's Handbook, would feature spells like Symbol of Pain, Magic Circle Against Good/Evil, and Magic Weapon/Greater Magic Weapon. It is one of the most unique forms in that it works straight from Craft(rune) skill checks (after a feat that lets you understand the workings of the runes), and is available to pretty much everybody. There's actually a small number of incidents in Haveneast's history where an artist, poet, scribe, or someone of similar occupation accidentally summons or invokes magical effects. The whole thing is something like an alternative to the Bo9S, if you will. :D

Something else I've been looking into for a long time was the use of certain foci to improve spell powers (and now WotC is doing it, haha) as a game mechanic. I never understood especially why all of the wands, rods, staves, and the like in D&D were limited to certain power levels and prices (or so it seemed). Why did a staff have to cost 50,000gp and grant you charged use of 8 different spells? Why couldn't it just improve the ones you had? I'm looking at creating these sorts of magical items that will have relation to certain schools or give bonuses to caster levels or even spell DCs to go with this change to the magic system.

Again, what I'm mentioning for mechanics now is only 3.5e - in the WoD system, it all becomes MUCH simpler, and it looks like 4th edition already has a lot of this built-in.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Wicked Troll]Rune magic, if forced to pull spells out of the Player's Handbook,[/blockquote]  Don't be forced.  Plagiarizing gratuitously is fine, as many desired spell effects (or effective spells, for that matter) are in the PHB, but if you write your own spells as they would actually develop from your setting, vs. using canned versions, you'll get a more original system and one that works better within your framework.  The setting is yours, so make the magic yours as well.  
But I realize I ask much of you.

[blockquote=Wicked Troll]Something else I've been looking into for a long time was the use of certain foci to improve spell powers (and now WotC is doing it, haha) as a game mechanic. I never understood especially why all of the wands, rods, staves, and the like in D&D were limited to certain power levels and prices (or so it seemed). Why did a staff have to cost 50,000gp and grant you charged use of 8 different spells? Why couldn't it just improve the ones you had? I'm looking at creating these sorts of magical items that will have relation to certain schools or give bonuses to caster levels or even spell DCs to go with this change to the magic system.[/blockquote]
Something I have also worked with.  I enjoy having a system that actually expects spell casters to have foci and crutches.  There is an item (ripped off shamelessly from ancient Tunnells and Trolls, but only because it make sense) called a staff ordinaire in my world, a common focusing aid, that reduces spirit mana (the part the comes from the caster) by 1 per spell cost.  But I use it (and its more powerful, rare cousins) because intelligent creatures are tool users, and find crutches or advantages wherever possibel  Keep that thought up, and make it yours.

[Hibou]

[blockquote=LordVreeg]Don't be forced. Plagiarizing gratuitously is fine, as many desired spell effects (or effective spells, for that matter) are in the PHB, but if you write your own spells as they would actually develop from your setting, vs. using canned versions, you'll get a more original system and one that works better within your framework. The setting is yours, so make the magic yours as well.
But I realize I ask much of you.[/blockquote]

Yeah, that's just declaring what kinds of effects you'd see. I definitely plan to invent my own spells with this (though many will certainly look like favorites - hey, what witch hasn't been skilled in turning people into toads and hexing?), even if I decide to finish Witchcraft d20 in its entirety.

[Hibou]

More updates, this time regarding ancestor races of the current peoples of Haveneast (found  here, and a bit of an explanation as to why certain things are seen the way they are to the people of Haveneast, found at the bottom of  this post.

What would people like to see next?

[Hibou]

Another update for tonight - the kingdoms of Anselvar all have descriptions now, and should all be edited as well (let me know if they're still pretty verbose). They can be found  here.

[LordVreeg]

SOme scribbles to show I care...

First off, I love the snippets names on the top of each spoiler.  Makes the reader feel like they know how you, the creator, want these kingdomes to be seen.

Llander seems to be something of a theocratic state...how old is it and did the Denarthan faith have something to do with it's origin?  It is one of the oldest in the area as well, no?
(and what place would knighthoods or priest warriors have?)

Angorad is written in the start from a perspective of how Llander views it...I don't know if I likwe that, as it prejudices us to see this state as an enemy first, and a state second.  Also intersting how many northern states are homes of mercs, as they actually enjoy working in an area with an 'off' season, historically.

Dovendy's comment towards the romance era is fascinating, though problematic.  I enjoy the use of such cultural cycles very much, and I appreciate it in others, but always remember that people of a time rarely note the time they live in for what it is, such cycles and movements are normally notated and named by those who come after.  Of course, as notated by a GM , then we are fine.

Merenland, Cremaria andNavelun seem to be more one-dimensional, but they probably are ther to provide a foil.

Chanelce, by comparison has some vitality to it.  Your notation about land ownership and continuous lineage are very good here.

Flane, also rings very true.  Architechtural development and syles can resonate.  This kingdom also looks liek a place that people might live.

I loved Knoit, as well.  I have some very enlightened political structes in my world, and the way that the republics can become paralyzed drives some of my playes nuts.

who is allied with whom?  I am wondering what alliances and treaty systems prevail among these notables.

[Hibou]

First of all, thanks for the replies. I posted some updates prior to the most recent post, I don't know if you read those or not :D.

 [blockquote=LV]Llander seems to be something of a theocratic state...how old is it and did the Denarthan faith have something to do with it's origin? It is one of the oldest in the area as well, no?
(and what place would knighthoods or priest warriors have?)[/blockquote]

Llander is indeed theocratic, and in times of absent kings and queens of the land (which have been fairly common in the past), the Grand Archbishop steps in as ruler. In addition, even when there is a true monarch in power, the GA is one of his/her primary advisers. At the beginning of Llander's "true" existence, it was ruled by the clergy.

Llander is one of the older countries, but Chanelce holds the title as the oldest in Anselvar (remember that Anselvar, also known as the Allegian Heartland, is just a portion of the continent of Myrenia). Llander was at one time the largest nation and was a true Empire, especially in the first years after the end of the Empire of Alleghast (a kingdom predating this one that encompassed Llander, most of Kangdemar and the eastern kingdoms such as Navelun and Indelan, and all of the areas that Llander recently lost in the Judema Plague uprisings). It is really a continuation of that Empire in the same respect that you might call the Byzantine Empire a continuation of the Roman one. I'm actually still working out the kinks in stuff I've written, as there is a lot of conflict regarding ages of nations, political relations, etc.

The Denarthan faith is the version of Justaism that is most predominant in Llander and has been since the Allegian days, and it's been that sect's doctrine that has kept Llander together in part. It's another one of those things I'm still trying to finalize from old material (you'll see more information on the different versions of Justaism soon, as I hope to do the specific sects and Burial in the Religion section next).

In Llander, most knights (that is, those who are trained by the Sacred Order of the Knights of Llander) fill the roles of both warriors and priests - it is not uncommon to see a knight seek out and say prayers for the enemies he kills on the battlefield, and preside over the burial. While these knights hold the title and are regularly referred to as Sir or Dame, they do not own their own land - they swear oaths to lords of greater titles, and in return for serving as their personal spiritual guide and warrior to call upon, a knight is granted a portion of land or a place in the noble's own estate (in the case of city-dwelling nobility).

 

Angorad is written in the start from a perspective of how Llander views it...I don't know if I likwe that, as it prejudices us to see this state as an enemy first, and a state second. Also intersting how many northern states are homes of mercs, as they actually enjoy working in an area with an 'off' season, historically.

I do this for two reasons:

1) In Haveneast, Llander is essentially the center of civilization. It is heralded as the light in the darkness and the center of all that is good and proper in the words of Justahn. Llander is a mighty military power and one of the largest nations despite losing much of its territory. It would make sense to me, then, to make it clear which other nation in Anselvar is its greatest enemy and largest threat to its sovereignty and reputation - Angorad fits this perfectly, as it has similar military might when an army is mustered, and is quickly gaining a reputation for its effectiveness and power. Regarding the "off" season comment, Angorad's mercenaries avoid problems associated with seasonal work both by having normal jobs at home - fishing, hunting, blacksmithing, harvesting, etc. that they can at least do part of the time they're home, and part of their military prestige arises from their warriors' ability to wage war effectively even during the winter.

 

Dovendy's comment towards the romance era is fascinating, though problematic. I enjoy the use of such cultural cycles very much, and I appreciate it in others, but always remember that people of a time rarely note the time they live in for what it is, such cycles and movements are normally notated and named by those who come after. Of course, as notated by a GM , then we are fine.

Dovendy is actually facing the tail end of the "romance era", and only now are artists and poets recognizing its past as such. There is an equal amount of recognition towards the nobles futilely attempting to revive the movement, and this is becoming another movement in itself. Dovendy is beginning to face its own political problems with nations south of it, and the peace and prosperity it once enjoyed as an ally to nearly every other nation is starting to fade. Some mourn the loss of "better" days, while others feel they have not yet ended and others still feel they never happened.

 

Merenland, Cremaria and Navelun seem to be more one-dimensional, but they probably are ther to provide a foil.

These guys were written the way they are for a couple reasons. Merenland and Navelun are written with poor rulers and poor quality of life because part of my mission with Haveneast is to emphasize the battle of good vs evil, and tyranny vs freedom - and I think having some kingdoms like this adds opportunity for players in the setting to be heroes and save the day. I also think it's unrealistic for all kingdoms to be in a good situation, and some of the others aren't that well off, either.

Cremaria is short and simple because it's small, sparsely populated, quiet, and part of my psuedo-Transylvania region (Alvanenia). I designed it based on what I imagined such a place to be like: a land of superstition with a fairly small role in the political stage (at least at the moment). Cremarians are isolationist farmers with little concern for outsiders except for when they cause trouble.

All three of these areas will get a much more detailed description once I get to expanding on the whole continent of Myrenia. For now, I just wanted to set in stone which nations are the big players. :D

 

Chanelce, by comparison has some vitality to it. Your notation about land ownership and continuous lineage are very good here.

Indeed. Chanelce lives up to its name and its people are proud to be able to reach into the past in more ways than one.

 

Flane, also rings very true. Architectural development and styles can resonate. This kingdom also looks liek a place that people might live.

I had hoped as much. They're up there in importance with Llander, Kangdemar, Angorad, and Chanelce, though a lot of this comes purely from the culture and not the military power. Flane holds combat tournaments that knights from all peaceful kingdoms are invited to take part in.

 

I loved Knoit, as well. I have some very enlightened political structes in my world, and the way that the republics can become paralyzed drives some of my playes nuts.

I do as well. I wanted to try and make Knoit as unique as possible in its governmental processes, and it seems to have worked considering the hierarchies of the other kingdoms of the Allegian Heartlands.

 

who is allied with whom? I am wondering what alliances and treaty systems prevail among these notables.

Flane is on neutral terms with everyone except for Punderland and the Barbarian Kingdoms. Prior to the invasion of from the north, it was at war with Scomland, but (with influence from the marriage of two noble children from the nations) peace was quickly negotiated to combat a new, more dire threat. So far, Flane has successfully fended off three attempts at landing on its northern shores - Scomland and Kangdemar haven't been that lucky with their own territory.

Kangdemar is allied to Scomland and Llander - though tensions still run with them in some parts of the latter. Its leaders have agreed to go to war with Llander against Punderland and Merenland, and to provide support in retaking Blakhyn, Kessely, and Wildium if need be, but has no interest in fighting in Greater Alvanenia or in the east. The first cousin of King Lerdamey was King-Consort in Llander prior to his death, and the Queen still wishes to keep her alliance with his home country. Kangdemar's primary concern lies on its northern border, which has been brought closer to the capital with the advance of the barbarians.

Llander is on neutral terms with Scomland and Dovendy, and the Queen and her military advisers do not believe that the territories they lost to the south will be a problem to retake - they are weak and can be saved until more important matters are dealt with. The Queen views Punderland's slave trade as horrid, and has recently declared war with them as well as Merenland. Naturally, they are bitter enemies with Angorad and have never even been on neutral terms with them. Llander also seeks war with Greater Alvanenia, though its closest ally Kangdemar wants nothing to do with such a war. There has actually been talk of allowing Kessely to remain independent because of the Queen's son's love for Kessely's heir to the throne, Princess Mamaie.

Knoit was at war with Wildium upon its separation from Llander, and though they are currently on neutral terms the stripping of power from a Baroness on Wildium's eastern border (who was once a popular member of the Knoitese senate) has rekindled the flames of battle between them. The small navies of Knoit and Kessely frequently wage small coastal battles, but they seldom last long. Knoit is neutral with most everyone else, though they have the jealousy of other kingdoms due to Knoit's reputation as a land of freedom and intelligence.

Angorad is allied to Chanelce, Indelan, Navelun, and Abvalund and at war with Llander. However, Abvalund's unwillingness to allow their eastern front to serve as a battlefield has made tensions rise between the two allies. Angorad's king, who married a countess of Indelan (who was in turn a sister to an Abvalic duchess) three years prior to the Abvalund Revolution wishes the conflict to end, but has not yet mobilized an army to restore order.

Chanelce and Greater Alvanenia are generally neutral and have been for some time (except with Hydolyn across the eastern mountains), but the marriage of Chanelce's king to the second daughter of Llander's queen (who was suppost to marry a baron in Kangdemar) has angered the queen and Chanelce (and thus, all of Greater Alvanenia) may soon see war.

Navelun is in the midst of a guerrilla war within itself and has little concerns for other nations at the moment. Dovendy is neutral, and Punderland's disagreements with other countries on slave policy has sparked a general dislike all-around. Merenland sees Punderland as new territory, as does Illmadia, making the two enemies and creating a triangle conflict. Illmadia is generally neutral or on bad terms with everyone, though there has been relative peace between  they and Llander since they took their original land along the coast. As Llander now only has only one port on the sea and none on the Rottwurd Sea, it is still angered at this.

Did I miss anyone?

I just realized I forgot to write descriptions for Kessely and Vigarth. I'll add those in soon.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=WT]Chanelce and Greater Alvanenia are generally neutral and have been for some time (except with Hydolyn across the eastern mountains), but the marriage of Chanelce's king to the second daughter of Llander's queen (who was suppost to marry a baron in Kangdemar) has angered the queen and Chanelce (and thus, all of Greater Alvanenia) may soon see war.[/blockquote]

The Queen of LLander is angered, correct?  And it sounds like LLander is prety busy already...and with the Nightmare so close, do settlements and temples and the homes of the wealthy have wards to strengthen the walls between the Nightmare and Haveneast?

[Hibou]

The Queen is angry, and yes Llander is pretty busy, but it is also the most populated and has the largest land army in the Allegian Heartlands (followed closely by Angorad and Kangdemar). The thing with the Nightmare is that for the most part, everyday people don't realize it for what it actually is - they think it's just where they go when they sleep. Superstitious regions fear "spirits" from other worlds and have their own wards and protections against the evil, but for the most part Haveneast is lacking in a lot of real supernatural action - except where our enlightened friends of witch and warlock creed are concerned. There are areas in the mortal world where beings from The Nightmare - both good and bad - have chosen to make homes, and it is near or in these areas that wizardly folk also tend to congregate.

The "walls" between Haveneast and The Nightmare are fairly solid, depending on how you look at them - the only really easy way for anyone to cross into the mortal world is by the use of Trans-Slumber Markers, mentioned in a post on the first page. Basically, these can be of any size, shape, and origin (some are massive black obelisks, others are tiny rocks that shift location over the centuries, and yet others still are people), and are weak points in the fabric of the universe where one can step through onto the other side. There are other ways, but this is the easiest. There are wards against this sort of thing, but it's mostly our magically-inclined friends that are aware of the proper methods and actually understand what they're doing.

There are other ways to cross, such as the animation of the dead. Animating a corpse is a painful process (for the entrapped spirit) that involves drawing a supernatural entity from The Nightmare to the host body in order to control it, but the Clemdish Church of Justahn has been preventing this successfully for centuries by giving the deceased a proper burial and a elegy (this is also done in Anur, Vikanocht, Avel-Norevia, and Tatavin, but the elegy is replaced with a requiem or dirge).

That was rather lengthy and extended to some other subjects, but I hope it answered your question. :/